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Old 06-20-2013, 12:37 PM   #31
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Unless you're cool with the sentry raising the alarm by shouting or firing a weapon, you can't just make attacks until he's dead. You need to start by establishing a grapple that makes it hard, or ideally impossible, for him to alert anyone else.

First you grapple the Neck and/or Face from a position behind him. Then you kill him.

And as soon as you can, you stop moving your knife arm around and instead use it (with the knife embedded in the neck of the sentry) to assist your grapple. Because that's your best bet of preventing the dying sentry from making too much noise.
Yes, of course, but the balance between keeping two hands on them and putting the knife in more seems to very strongly favor the knife.
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
How does a player know that an enemy is finished off? In the dark, Diagnosis checks are not all that easy, particularly not if you try to make them in 1-2 seconds.

I'll grant that I still use the bleeding rules for veins/arteries from GURPS 3e, where it's possible to cause 1 HP / second bleeding by either surgically opening either carotid artery or by doing enough trauma to the general jugular/carotid area. With those rules, it makes sense that once you have caused sufficient bleeding, you don't need to take the risk of releasing one arm from your grapple to do more HP damage and can instead wait for blood loss to do your work for you.

Even without that, though, it makes perfect sense that once the opponent appears unconscious, you continue to hold him until you are sufficiently certain that he is neither faking nor temporarily stunned.
Make it a trivial question by doing something utterly gratuitous like sawing away every bit of soft tissue from the neck, or outright gouging their cranium open and spooning out some brain, or slicing their heart to stirfry. It'll still be faster than waiting to be sure they've bled to death with current GURPS rules. (Which has the same problem, after all...how do you know they've bled to death?)
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Originally Posted by ajardoor View Post
Also, do characters getting choked or strangled (or even just without breathable air or exhaling smoke) lose the ability to speak?
I'm pretty sure that there's some information about that, yes, though I don't remember the precise details.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:44 PM   #32
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

IIRC at least some modern suppressors are less to avoid anyone hearing you fire, and more to ensure that you can still hear after firing indoors.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Yes, of course, but the balance between keeping two hands on them and putting the knife in more seems to very strongly favor the knife.
Messy, loud and unecessary.

In reality, stabbing someone more is not going to make them magically instantly dead. They'll die when they bleed out and all you're doing is making more holes for the blood to escape from. As long as you manage to open big veins and arteries with your first stab and then working the knife around, you're good.

It's perfectly reasonable to rule that no amount of stabbing is going to prevent a dying character from making a dying speech, giving a dying shout or emptying his rifle into the air, at the GM's discretion. The only way to do that is to control him through a grapple while he is dying.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Make it a trivial question by doing something utterly gratuitous like sawing away every bit of soft tissue from the neck, or outright gouging their cranium open and spooning out some brain, or slicing their heart to stirfry. It'll still be faster than waiting to be sure they've bled to death with current GURPS rules. (Which has the same problem, after all...how do you know they've bled to death?)
All of which are going to take you at least 30 seconds, realistically. And make noise. Hacking at someone with a knife is not completely silent and the fewer attacks you have to make, the better for stealth.

For that matter, realistically, you never know that they've bled to death. You hold on at least 30 seconds and up to 2 minutes so that you can be reasonably certain that the sentry is securely unconscious at the very least.

And even with unmodified GURPS rules, this works. While you're grappling and/or stabbing, the sentry is going to be making HT checks to retain consciousness. And within 30 seconds, he'll fail one, because it's pretty much a given that no one will be content to Do Nothing while you bleed them out in the hope that you'll fall for his Acting. Playing dead is fine, but not while someone has a knife in your neck and is actively draining out your blood.

And while instant Diagnosis in the dark is very hard, knowing when someone you hold for 30 seconds is either dead, or so unconscious that he might as well be, receives a significant bonus.

The main use of holding on for a while after inflicting enough damage for a mortal wound is so that a stunned or faking sentry can't make noise. Once you're pretty sure he's unconscious (and dying) or already dead, you can let go.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:04 PM   #34
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Messy, loud and unecessary.

In reality, stabbing someone more is not going to make them magically instantly dead. They'll die when they bleed out and all you're doing is making more holes for the blood to escape from. As long as you manage to open big veins and arteries with your first stab and then working the knife around, you're good.

It's perfectly reasonable to rule that no amount of stabbing is going to prevent a dying character from making a dying speech, giving a dying shout or emptying his rifle into the air, at the GM's discretion. The only way to do that is to control him through a grapple while he is dying.
Except that there's no definition of 'while he is dying'. It does not exist. There is absolutely nothing in the system that says how long I have to wait.

I'm not proposing skipping the grappling. Obviously, that won't work. I'm saying that switching from one hand grappling and one hand stabbing to two hands grappling is not productive.

I'm also not saying this is true in reality. But if it is true in GURPS but not reality, well, that's notable.
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
All of which are going to take you at least 30 seconds, realistically. And make noise. Hacking at someone with a knife is not completely silent and the fewer attacks you have to make, the better for stealth.

For that matter, realistically, you never know that they've bled to death. You hold on at least 30 seconds and up to 2 minutes so that you can be reasonably certain that the sentry is securely unconscious at the very least.
No thanks to GURPS bleeding...
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
And even with unmodified GURPS rules, this works. While you're grappling and/or stabbing, the sentry is going to be making HT checks to retain consciousness. And within 30 seconds, he'll fail one, because it's pretty much a given that no one will be content to Do Nothing while you bleed them out in the hope that you'll fall for his Acting. Playing dead is fine, but not while someone has a knife in your neck and is actively draining out your blood.

And while instant Diagnosis in the dark is very hard, knowing when someone you hold for 30 seconds is either dead, or so unconscious that he might as well be, receives a significant bonus.

The main use of holding on for a while after inflicting enough damage for a mortal wound is so that a stunned or faking sentry can't make noise. Once you're pretty sure he's unconscious (and dying) or already dead, you can let go.
It doesn't work in GURPS when you've ruled that failing an HT check to retain consciousness doesn't mean you can't still actively cause trouble. Why does that ruling cease to apply here? In what way does holding a guy for 30 seconds get to force actual unconsciousness rather than that watered-down 'unconsciousness' that doesn't actually mean they have to stop doing things?
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:07 PM   #35
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Have I missed it, or have you not discussed the relevance of the Vitals and Skull hit locations for the Stun/Knockdown modifier? Seems to me that the easiest way to kill a sentry is to sneak up behind him and shoot or stab him in the nape of the neck (which is really just the Skull hit location).

An AOA (Strong) with Telegraphic and whatever bonus from sneaking up (+3 from 3 seconds of Evaluate before you strike, at least), not to mention any kind of Targeted Attack training, means that you can basically expect to hit. No defense, since it's from behind. Average guy doing 1d+2 imp with the knife results in about 3 penetrating damage, or 12 injury, which forces a Stun/Knockdown roll at -10. Your average HT 11, Fit sentry (assuming that's "average"0 falls down on anything above 3-4, and goes entirely unconscious (and thus silent) on a 7 or higher!

The same is basically true of the gunshot to the head.

Vitals stabbings only give(s) a -5 to the S/K roll, but still, that's instant unconsciousness on a 12 or higher with stun/knockdown almost guaranteed.

So, I don't get the "30 seconds of struggling" to take down a sentry.

Edit: I believe you can get a further bonus for the skull stabbing if you grapple first. Maybe that's an upcoming rule in TG, but I swear I've seen it mentioned.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:12 PM   #36
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by apoc527 View Post
Have I missed it, or have you not discussed the relevance of the Vitals and Skull hit locations for the Stun/Knockdown modifier? Seems to me that the easiest way to kill a sentry is to sneak up behind him and shoot or stab him in the nape of the neck (which is really just the Skull hit location).

An AOA (Strong) with Telegraphic and whatever bonus from sneaking up (+3 from 3 seconds of Evaluate before you strike, at least), not to mention any kind of Targeted Attack training, means that you can basically expect to hit. No defense, since it's from behind. Average guy doing 1d+2 imp with the knife results in about 3 penetrating damage, or 12 injury, which forces a Stun/Knockdown roll at -10. Your average HT 11, Fit sentry (assuming that's "average"0 falls down on anything above 3-4, and goes entirely unconscious (and thus silent) on a 7 or higher!

The same is basically true of the gunshot to the head.

Vitals stabbings only give(s) a -5 to the S/K roll, but still, that's instant unconsciousness on a 12 or higher with stun/knockdown almost guaranteed.
While I'm not happy with claims that 'unconscious' can mean screaming and discharging firearms, I don't think you should assume that just because you hit someone by surprise and take them down in one shot, they aren't capable of at least making noise as it happens! For that matter, just the noise of them falling over if you aren't able to catch them is a problem.
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So, I don't get the "30 seconds of struggling" to take down a sentry.
That's largely inspired by real-world sentry takedown methods.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:53 PM   #37
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
While I'm not happy with claims that 'unconscious' can mean screaming and discharging firearms
Realistically, injury doesn't cause people to go unconscious except in unusual situations (which cannot realistically be achieved with a knife in one turn), so you have to read 'unconscious due to injury' as 'incapacitated'.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:55 PM   #38
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Realistically, injury doesn't cause people to go unconscious except in unusual situations (which cannot realistically be achieved with a knife in one turn), so you have to read 'unconscious due to injury' as 'incapacitated'.
Wait, are you saying it's not realistically possible to jam a knife into a brain from behind, perhaps after grappling the head to stabilize your target? Perhaps that's a much harder thing to do than it sounds, but regardless, if it could be done, "instant unconsciousness, no sound" (assuming you catch them as they fall) is not unrealistic at all IMO.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:57 PM   #39
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Realistically, injury doesn't cause people to go unconscious except in unusual situations (which cannot realistically be achieved with a knife in one turn), so you have to read 'unconscious due to injury' as 'incapacitated'.
There's a rather unfortunate total lack of any rules anywhere for transitioning from that to actually unconscious...
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Old 06-20-2013, 02:05 PM   #40
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Wait, are you saying it's not realistically possible to jam a knife into a brain from behind, perhaps after grappling the head to stabilize your target?
Jamming a knife into the brain from behind, then wiggling it around in the hole until you puree enough of the brain to actually eliminate function, is non-trivial and takes more than a second, and represents probably around HT*4 damage. In general, if the brain doesn't splatter, you might not have hit what you need to hit.
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