Gadgeteer - yes, again, but with some specific ponderations

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

First of all, it's perfectly possible to use gadgeteering to fix something that is broken. At the least you can quickly and inexpensively handcraft substitutes for any broken component, a new transmission, alternator whatever. No need to wait for spare parts or pay full price.

Yep, this is an important point. Being able to repair things using substitute adn improvised parts can really help in repairs.
GURPS After the End actually has a couple of pages on Gadgeteering that I think is better in most circumstances than the rules in Basic.
And it includes repair.
Maybe someone will do a Power-Ups: Gadgeteering book someday, be a few years most likely before I throw my hat in the ring for that one. Priorities :)

Gadgeteering has a Specialized limitation, -50% for using just one category as you described. First appeared in Monster Hunters I think and is also in that After the End supplement.

As for faster repairs?

• High skill to absorb penalties for taking less time. See Time Spent rules in Campaigns.
• Healing for Machines
• Altered Time Rate tow take multiple actions, Repairs only is maybe -60%? Maybe even -80% as its out of combat and typically off screen.
• Telekinesis with modifers for that +4 skill or collective for an area effect working on several parts of the object a t a time

[KarlKost]

New Invention Rules

First, please excuse me for being a little vague. Im putting all my ideas here as they come, even thou they are still raw. I'll have to check the books for all the advantages and rules and everything to sharp it all, I'll just put the points of notice here for later reference.

That being said, back to the point:

The invention rules could do a little tweak. So, a few starting points:

I was thinking about using something like the changes for computers in Ultra Tech. I'll check them out and return later. Is there any moderator or any one that could tell me if is it ok for me to post just that small rule here?

That would be just for referencing anyway.

I was thinking to have rules about the following... Stuff, sorry, I forgot the word, and I dont wanna lose time trying to remember it. Grrr my brain... Anyway:

- New Invention: something brand new (that's a peculiar that will need a more focused eye, I'll return to it later on). May or may not be of a higher TL

- Improvement: improving something that already exists. In that regard:

* 1. Added Functionality: add something new to something that already exists. This may count as a "New Invention" on some cases. Example: setting a radio in a car during the 1920's cars, or turning a cellphone into a small computer in the 1990's. Or turn your TV into a cellphone (basically allowing you to make video calls directly from your TV). Or allowing your cellphone to act as a mini gun with a single bullet.

* 2. Improved Functionality: making something better. That's the part that may interest most players and that must be well designed, and the limits well set. Here we include things like increased damage of weapons for example, or explosive/acid/electrict ammunition, or a faster computer, faster car, more precise equipment etc.

* 3. Miniaturization: many players forget the importance of making something become smaller. Turning something into a smaller version of itself while keeping the same functionality (or losing very little) is VERY powerful. For example, being able to turn your clock into a mini gun that shoots mini or micro bullets that still have the same damage of a magnum44, or just a slightly smaller amount of damage, or whose micro bullets are explosive or with uranium rounds would be INSANELY powerful.
In here I revert back to my previous idea of "Gadgeteer Pool Points" to set the limits
Miniaturization involves both size and weight.

* 4. Cheaper/Easier Production: players getting Gadgeteer also usually ignore the possibility of simply making something cheaper or easier to build, and how powerful this option is. Instead of making a super zapping death ray, just create a method to reduce the costs of manufacturing AK 47, be it a reduction on raw materials, energy necessary, complexity of the assembly line or time required.

Alternatively thou, it is possible to make something WORSE in at least a few factors, in order to improve some other aspects in a greater degree. So:

* A. Remove Functionality
* B. Reduced Functionality
* C. Bigger/Heavier
* D. More Expensive

Just to make a picture of this blueprint, I'll throw a generic "-1" for all the possible improvements, and a "+1" for all the possible reductions, which can translate into bonuses for creation rolls, time required, capital necessary or anything else (those are not balanced of course).
And any creation could include any possible combination of any of the above that isnt mutually exclusive, so for example:
A. 2. C. D.
To create an item with a reduced functionality, bigger and heavier and more expensive than a regular item, but with some improved functionality. For example, a computer that cannot do anything but a run a single software, a computer that is bigger, heavier and more expensive than normal, but that runs that single software much more smoothier and faster than any other. And the final net modifier would be (A. +1, 2. -1, C. +1, D. +1) +3, which could either mean a +3 for the rolls or some reduction on a table under "time and cost" to create such a prototype - maybe all of the above.

Such a system could also be used even for higher TLs - yes, that means making a "cheaper" product from a higher TL too. "Cheaper" in this sense means the base price, but you'd still have to multiply this "cheaper" version for the cost of going above your own TL.

In here, you could have an escale in each of those variants. For example, for each 10% reduction of the price to produce such an item, get a -1 penalty for rolls, time etc, perhaps to a maximum of 50% to 80% (that margin will need some thinkering), while for each doubling of price it gives a +1 bonus, to a maximum of 32x times (2^5), while size and weight gets a -1 for each time is halved, so an item 32 times lighter and smaller gets a -5 penalty, or an item 32 times bigger and heavier is a +5 bonus, and so on.

So, what do you guys think about that crude initial draw? Anyone willing to throw a few more well thought numbers?

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I think he probably does both. Mechanic won't let you _modify_ the thing you can repair and maintain. You need Engineer to do modifications.

He may have some skill in some warp or impulse engine design, but he doesn't exhibit this on the show. He finds ways to make broken things work with improvised parts (shoving radans into the dilithium chamber, keeping an old life-support system working without the correct part). But he never, for instance, talks about finding ways to improve the engines of the Enterprise. Probably the most designer-like he ever gets is when he builds a whale tank on a Klingon bird of prey.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

I dont know if we could say that he simply has Mechanic (Warp Drive) and/or Mechanic (Starships Engines) 35+, or if it's something more, some sort of advantage.

He probably has the wildcard skill Mechanic! at a high level, but not that high.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

He probably has the wildcard skill Mechanic! at a high level, but not that high.

Ok, Mechanic 35 was clearly an exaggeration, 20-25 is more likely. I agree on Mechanic! as a Wildcard, but wouldnt you also need Gadgeteer (Mechanic Only) for the outlandish repairs that you make using improvised parts that goes beyond what should be feasible? And Quick Gadgeteer (Mechanic Only) for those repairs on the Star Ship Hyperdrive that you make with a spoon melted in the reactor and a piece of your clothes?

Also, I believe that a "Mechanic Only" should be worthed at least 80% limitation, and I think it should be made into a separated advantage (Gadgeteer (Mechanic) 5 pts, Quick Gadgeteer (Mechanic) 10 pts) as to not limit other limitations

[KarlKost]

Ok, so I guess that the first idea is pretty much done. Gadgeteer (Mechanic Only), with Mechanic! as a Wildcard skill seems the way to go, with a price at -80%, since this advantage doesnt allow to deal with anything from a higher TL nor add any new type of improvement to the gadget, that seems a fair price for me, with Gadgeteer (Mechanic) for 5 pts, and Quick Gadgeteer (Mechanic) for 10 pts, which I think should be an advantage by itself (therefore you can add further limitations to it). I guess that's good as is, but Im still open for new ideas.

Now, for the rest:

1. Maximum TL above your own Limitation
A limitation upon which the Gadgeteer CANNOT create things above his own TL - or perhaps setting a limit to the amount of TLs, for example, no more than 3 TLs above, no more than 1 TL above, with an exponential decrease on the value of the limitation, of course, since above 3 TLs (4 or more) the penalties are so high to the point of being prohibitive. Thus, maybe -5% "No more than 3 TLs", -10% "no more than 2 TLs", -20% "no more than 1 TL" and finally -40% "only at your own TL"?

Wow, I actually like those numbers. What do you guys think?

2. Gadgets from TLs bellow your own
Now, a small enhancement for including "Technoprimitivism". Or, actually, I think this would be better as a different Advantage. Just like there's an advantage for having access to equipment from a Higher TL, this could be based on that. I'll give a look into the penalties for higher and lower TLs and I'll use it as a guide for constructing this Advantage.

3. Mandatory Split of Gadgeteer Advantage
I would like to know, what's the consensus, do you guys like it, like it not?
Yes, I know this can do with limitations, but there is a difference. I'll use Gadgeteer (Mechanic) above as an example:
Gadgeteer (Mechanic -80%) = 5 CPs. That's a limitation.
Gadgeteer (Mechanic) 5 CPs is a separates Advantage.
Problem is, you cant add further limitations. Lets pretend for example that I decide to place "Cosmic 100% - Any TL", allowing me to repair alien chips (ok, that would probably be worthy 300%, but with 100% will be easier for this exercise).
So, in the case of the limitation that would give a net +20% out of 25, so it would have a total cost of 30 CPs.
In the case of a different advantage, it would be 100% out of 5, or 10 CPs.
Imo each "brand" of Gadgeteer should merit their own exclusive Advantage, and that should be broad enough to encompass at least roughly the same as a Wildcard skill or a Talent or some sort of common group (like spells, enchantment, alchemy or "spirit craft"). So for example, Gadgeteer (Engineer) should encompass at least Engeneering! (perhaps more), while Gadgeteer (Computer) should include software, hacking (already cinematic of a skill, but alas) and perhaps or perhaps not include computer engeneering (I'll let that minutia for later).
So? Agree? Disagree? More to add?

4. New Invention Rules
So, any thoughts on that first draft? Like it, dislike it? Ideas? Something to add

5. Game Mechanics
That part was the one most crude of all in my head, so it still needs a lot of work.
Still, any ideas or something to add? The idea here is to try to set limits here - not letting player want to create 106d6 death ray device just because he has this advantage and a few points in engineering.

That's it for now, I had one more idea but it escaped my unorthodox brain memory, if I get it back I'll put it here

[KarlKost]

Oh yes, I remembered now, my 6th and final point. I believe that Gadgeteer should be cheaper based on the TL. Or maybe even have a non linear base cost based on the TL of the setting so;

6. Gadgeteer Price TL-Based

So, I think Gadgeteer is NOT equally useful across several different TLs. For instance, Gadgeteer at TL 0 may be of some use if you can get to make bronze weapons - a massive advantage for the Stone Age. However, that wont be such a great advantage for a Bronze Age man to make iron weapons.

Also, at TLs 1 to 3, your options will be pretty limited, and trying to come up with the REAL game changers from at least TL 5 will have such MASSIVE penalties (for money specially) that makes this advantage close to useless, or just situational / barely useful.

At TL 4, it's at least possible to ignite some early Steampunk stunts, so in that range it begins to get a little bit better.

From TL 5 above, this Advantage begins to truly manifest. Even then, a TL 5 Gadgeteer going with some TL 7 stuff (with a massive dificulty) still wont be as much of a game changer for the setting as say a TL 7 guy building an early Artificial Intelligence computers. And that's even less than a TL 9 guy building a TL 11 spaceship.

Now, while I do think that some TL changes are more impactful than others - for example, TL 7 to 8 and TL 4 to 5 or TL 0 to 1 are much more impactful than TL 2 to 3 or TL 6 to 7 - and thus probably a case is to be made that therefore each specific TL should have an specific cost, that would perhaps be hard to balance and add too much complexity. So, my suggestion would be a simple arithmetic increase, with the normal value (as it is for the moment) for TL 8. So, for example (for normal and Quick Gadgeteer)
TL 0 - 05/10
TL 1 - 08/15
TL 2 - 10/20
TL 3 - 13/25
TL 4 - 15/30
TL 5 - 18/35
TL 6 - 20/40
TL 7 - 23/45
TL 8 - 25/50
TL 9 - 28/55
TL 10 - 30/60
TL 11 - 33/65
TL 12 - 35/70

Now, from TL 9 and above there would be a discount simply because o the TL limit (like I said above, the maximum TL above your own that you can create something). So:
TL 9 = -5% (no more than 3 TLs above your own)
TL 10 = -10% (no more than 2 TLs above)
TL 11 = -20% (no more than a single TL above)
TL 12 = -40% (only at your own TL)

Meaning that a Quick Gadgeteer at TL 12 would actually pay 42 CPs for not being able to create anything from a higher TL than his own.

So, what do you guys think? Thoughts, suggestions?

[Fred Brackin]

[QUOTE=Stormcrow;2431160]He may have some skill in some warp or impulse engine design, but he doesn't exhibit this on the show.

In his TNG appearance he had designed the engines for the ship he was travelling on. Admittedly he might not be a Gadgeteer but he has very broadly based Skills. He's done a lot more than just imitative repairs.

[KarlKost]

One more, and final point:

7. Modular Modifications
Some items can (or must) be changed on its entirety, like a gun or simple manual tool.
Others however, can (or must) be twinked one component at a time. A car for example, or a Spaceship or DeathStar. Any of the ideas above (for changing size and weight or increasing functionality, for example) are good to go, but that needs some thinkering about the results on modular changes. For example, if you do some adjustments on the engines of your SpaceShip, that may have more effects than simply making it go faster, it may make other systems more efficient too or make it save more fuel. If you can make it smaller and lighter, much the same. So, that's something else to take into consideration.

So, anyone is willing to give it a try in any one of these points?

[KarlKost]

No one is willing to try?

[Kaspar]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

New Invention Rules
- Improvement: improving something that already exists. In that regard:

The numbers seem fine at first glance. Would really have test in a game. I always wanted to run/play a superhero game focused on genius gadgeteers changing the world.

1. Maximum TL above your own Limitation

As I see it, MacGyver is the perfect example of a Gadgeteer without Higher TL. If you want to make futuristic stuff, take Higher TL and skills. Though, B473 states “-5 if the device is one TL above the inventor’s TL.” So maybe one TL+ can be reached for free?

And what about the superscience TL^? I guess it’s up to the GM on which superscience is possible in this setting and on which TL.

2. Gadgets from TLs bellow your own

Gadgeteers know how to get by with less, so working in lower TL should not be a problem. See “Reinventing the Wheel” in B473.

3. Mandatory Split of Gadgeteer Advantage

Hard to say. How valuable it is to repair alien tech would depend on the setting. The GM will have to eyeball that.