Better rules for Invisibility?

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

1. Affects Machines. If I am invisible to the band of light that a machine uses, how the heck can it see me? Why do I need this enhancement?

One related question I have about this, is what specific aspect of the Machine meta-trait designates which type of invisibility works against you? Is it a zero point feature?

There's 3 basic verisons...

Invisibiility (Affects Machines +50%) [60]
Invisibility (Not Machines -0%) [40]
Invisibility (Machines Only -50%) [20]

Any indecision about whether AM is a prereq for MO would be settled by Powers 57:

The best optical camouflage has Affects Machines (+50%) instead of Machines Only

I guess we could also look at "Doesn't Affect Non-Machines" as a -100% limitation put on top of Affects Machines +50%?

It seems like affecting machines is worth twice as much as affecting non-machines, which might be based on our modern world. In a setting where there are more machines to avoid than people (or where people rely on viewing each other through video HUDs) avoiding machines might actually be MORE important...

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Plane

One related question I have about this, is what specific aspect of the Machine meta-trait designates which type of invisibility works against you? Is it a zero point feature?

There's 3 basic verisons...

Invisibiility (Affects Machines +50%) [60]
Invisibility (Not Machines -0%) [40]
Invisibility (Machines Only -50%) [20]

Any indecision about whether AM is a prereq for MO would be settled by Powers 57:

The best optical camouflage has Affects Machines (+50%) instead of Machines Only

I guess we could also look at "Doesn't Affect Non-Machines" as a -100% limitation put on top of Affects Machines +50%?
.

That's the wrong way of looking at it though. Invisibility to Machines is basically just the same advantage as Invisibility to Organics with a different focus.

[Crystalline_Entity]

I'm never sure whether Obscure 10 (Vision; Defensive, +50%; Stealthy, +100%) [50] is a better choice than Invisibility; it automatically affects machines, and doesn't require "Can Carry Objects". The counterbalance seems to be that default sense coverage (without Extended) for Obscure (normal vision) is less than Invisibility (all EM radiation) though.

[Celjabba]

Invisibility first appeared as a racial advantage (in Aliens, Blood Types, maybe others) which explain the default "always on", I think.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

That's the wrong way of looking at it though. Invisibility to Machines is basically just the same advantage as Invisibility to Organics with a different focus.

In Supers (second edition) for 3e (and the Compendium I), there were 2 separate advantages :

Invisibility to normal sight / EM spectrum. [40]
Cannot be photographied, but otherwise detectable by mechanical devices.

Invisibility to machines [20]
Cannot be photographied or be detected by a machine sensors.
Intended for supernatural creatures that can be "seen" by human, but not by machines. Also a racial advantages usually, so always on by default.

In 4e, the 2 were merged, with ItM becoming a +50% enhancement instead, but otherwise, it wasn't changed much from it's 3e root.

Recreating the advantage to be more generic isn't difficult, as Aesir32 did above, or even from scratch using Obscure, as Crystalline_Entity suggest.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

That's the wrong way of looking at it though. Invisibility to Machines is basically just the same advantage as Invisibility to Organics with a different focus.

and half the cost, since it's "instead of" and not "in addition to" it looks like it's not -50 cancelling out +50 as a 0% modifier.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Crystalline_Entity

I'm never sure whether Obscure 10 (Vision; Defensive, +50%; Stealthy, +100%) [50] is a better choice than Invisibility; it automatically affects machines, and doesn't require "Can Carry Objects". The counterbalance seems to be that default sense coverage (without Extended) for Obscure (normal vision) is less than Invisibility (all EM radiation) though.

With Obscure, there's also the possibility of creatures with very high PER or several levels of Acute Vision seeing you anyway, or even an ordinary person rolling a critical success.

Invisible, by contrast, is absolute and binary--either someone has See Invisible or the don't.

[dataweaver]

Right. Which would put the coast of Invisibility higher than Obscure 10 — but not by much. Obscure 10 is essentially the same penalty as total darkness.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by aesir23

With Obscure, there's also the possibility of creatures with very high PER or several levels of Acute Vision seeing you anyway, or even an ordinary person rolling a critical success.

"Ten levels will block the sense completely." If you have 10 levels, it doesn't matter how much PER they have or how many levels of Acute Vision, they don't get to roll.

[Plane]

I don't think Obscure has a rival "See Invisible" counter-ability either, right?

[Rupert]

One thing is that Obscure creates a zone, so anyone can hide in it, friend or foe. Also, even though Stealthy stops someone from spotting the field, being unable to spot terrain features that are inside the field should allow people to realise an Obscure zone is there.

Originally Posted by Plane

I don't think Obscure has a rival "See Invisible" counter-ability either, right?

If the Obscure has a source Detect [source] should allow finding even a Stealthy Obscure.