Card Play and Discard questions.

[DenSpb]

On our national forum two questions were raised, and I'm not quite sure in correct answer:
1) When discarding cards for powering ability what happens in following situation, when player tries to discard two cards:

• (1) Cheat! and (2) Cheated small item
• (1) Cheat! and (2) Cheated Big item, when player has second Big item.
• (1) Convenient Handles and (2) Item that CH was applied to when player has second Big item.
• (1) Knight Light and (2) second piece of Headgear.
• (1) Item Enhancer and (2) Item that had the enhancer
• (1) Race/Class Modifier from Munchkin Dice/Blender and (2) Race/Class

Are all of these cases treated as discarding 2 cards?

2) Does all following cards fall under "can be played at any time during your turn or as soon as you get it" rule?

• Cheat
• Epic Junior
• Old Edition
• Created Using Cinematic Rules
• Sudden Head Blow
• Wand Of Dowsing

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by DenSpb

On our national forum two questions were raised, and I'm not quite sure in correct answer:
1) When discarding cards for powering ability what happens in following situation, when player tries to discard two cards:

• (1) Cheat! and (2) Cheated small item
• (1) Cheat! and (2) Cheated Big item, when player has second Big item.
• (1) Convenient Handles and (2) Item that CH was applied to when player has second Big item.
• (1) Knight Light and (2) second piece of Headgear.
• (1) Item Enhancer and (2) Item that had the enhancer
• (1) Race/Class Modifier from Munchkin Dice/Blender and (2) Race/Class

Are all of these cases treated as discarding 2 cards?

Hmmmmm. . . Any time a card is permanently attached to another, discarding one would force the discard of the other. That's 2 cards you're discarding, and I don't see that they count as anything else. We are talking about cards, and not Items or Races that you are specifically discarding, yes? If the ability you are using says to discard an Item, than anything attached to an Item would go, but it's still one Item.

2) Does all following cards fall under "can be played at any time during your turn or as soon as you get it" rule?

• Cheat
• Epic Junior
• Old Edition
• Created Using Cinematic Rules
• Sudden Head Blow
• Wand Of Dowsing

Hmmm. . . I don't know that any of these are easily answered. I think almost all of them are interesting cases that I'd need to review or explain in detail, which I'm not prepared to do at the moment.

[DenSpb]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

Hmmmmm. . . Any time a card is permanently attached to another, discarding one would force the discard of the other.

Well... But that is not a case for Cheat With Both Hands, when you can lose one item and keep CWBH, but can not take that one aside just for leaving Cheat slot. That was the main point for my uncertainty.

For clarification: can player discard usual Cheat without discarding cheated item (if it is not second Big item he carries)?

[ArcadianRefugee]

Originally Posted by DenSpb

2) Does all following cards fall under "can be played at any time during your turn or as soon as you get it" rule?

• Cheat
• Epic Junior
• Old Edition
• Created Using Cinematic Rules
• Sudden Head Blow
• Wand Of Dowsing

Wand of Dowsing is an Item, which means it is a Treasure, so yes.

Sudden Head Blow: It's a special kinda card. I'd say it is probably usable at any time, even on another's turn.

Old Edition and Epic Junior modify Race/Class, so I'd say only when you get 'em or on your turn just like Races/Classes.

Likewise "Cheat".

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

Any time a card is permanently attached to another, discarding one would force the discard of the other.

That sucks. :(

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by ArcadianRefugee

That sucks. :(

Why? And why does this come as a surprise? "Permanently" means things like Poisoned, Cheat, or Blessed (wrt Items) or Dark or Master (wrt Races and Classes). If we're talking about Fu, and we're talking about all those Items that are multi-layer Armor, that's just being worn together, not a permanent attachment. I think the Knight Light, too, could be discarded separately.

[ArcadianRefugee]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

Why?

Well, for the obvious reason of being able to shuck a card and only reduce an Item without losing out on the Item completely (by ditching the "...Of Doom" but keeping the Item).

And why does this come as a surprise? "Permanently" means things like Poisoned, Cheat, or Blessed (wrt Items) or Dark or Master (wrt Races and Classes).

I've never really thought of it as "permanently". I mean, yeah, I know that they can't be switched from one item to another, and that the enhancer goes with the item if it [the item] is lost, stolen, or discarded, but I just never really thought of it the other way 'round (that the item is lost if the enhancer is lost, stolen, or discarded ... so to speak). Much in the same way that you can't decide in the middle of combat "I'm not using this item" but you could discard the item to power an ability mid-combat, I always viewed the enhancer in much the same way -- you couldn't just decide "nah" and toss it, but by using it to power an ability you could "side-step" that problem.

Oh well.

[MunchkinMan]

Ah, I see. . . But, I believe we've always treated the Item and Item Enhancer as inextricably linked.

DenSpb:
Cheat With Both Hands needs to be attached to at least one Item. The wording, as I recall, allows you to lose one Item and keep the other, and I've always allowed adding another Item on to it later. However, if there's only one Item, you can't keep the card out and it must be discarded, so that would count as two in that case. Cheat! is one of those cards that I don't think can be removed, but I'd have to review to be sure.

[RL]

Originally Posted by DenSpb

2) Does all following cards fall under "can be played at any time during your turn or as soon as you get it" rule?

• Cheat
• Epic Junior
• Old Edition
• Created Using Cinematic Rules
• Sudden Head Blow
• Wand Of Dowsing

We've been playing the Sudden Head Blow as if you can play it at any time. In fact, I was "cured" of my Cultist status in the middle of combat by someone else playing Sudden Head Blow on me--which removed my Cultist bonus and ultimately caused me to lose the combat.

As far as the Cheat card goes, I've been wondering about that as well. I pretty much allow it to be played with an item that is also able to be legally played. But what about the case, when it's not your turn but you've received some new items, where you put the cheat card on an existing wielded item so that you can then play and wield one of the new items?