The Economic System in TFT

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by JLV

It seems to me that these two quotes are arguing the exact opposite of each other. If an inexperienced player/GM doesn't realize that someone else is gaming the system due to lack of familiarity with both the system and roleplaying in general, there would be obvious value in suggesting that the GM reconsider things. If, on the other hand, the GM and players want to play it this way, go for it -- it's their game, after all.

More importantly, I was speaking about my own opinion (as I clearly stated) not making some overarching comment about the "one twue way" to play a game.

I was responding to you and ecz writing that spending six months working and saving money for something should not be done (apparently that's not what you meant exactly). Seems to me it ads interesting things that can be used in a few ways, though there are details to fix (the experience thing in particular) and GM suggestions I'd add (and I'd like to understand your and ecz' points of view, so they could be turned into constructive suggestions to GMs).

Originally Posted by ecz

I think it is pointless having eight variants of the same "military type" job for heroes and seven of the "wizardly type" carieer for wizards. No harm of course, but pages and efforts could be better used. I think that three levels per carieer are enough: basic, intermediate and high according the skils/talents of the PC . The Jobs table must stay, but should give more generic guidelines. GMs should not assign or negate a job just counting the number of "combat" talents/spells.

Yes, even at 11-12 years old, we didn't think measure qualifications by number of weapon talents made a lot of sense. I agree the jobs could/should be improved (perhaps by someone not named Steve) and more guidelines offered. It was interesting and useful for us as a starting point though, and some players did try out military careers (though they started trying to escape when they learned the military wanted them to learn pole weapons and use certain equipment and so on), and it was good to see the idea/value of having something written down that details the requirements/risks/rewards of various jobs including different levels and variations of a career, and to have a healthy range of examples and ways for characters to use their various talents for hire so the GM at least has a suggestion. It would have been good to have a sentence or two making clear that the listed job stats are just ballpark suggestions and that each specific job in a campaign could vary quite a bit in what it required and offered.

Originally Posted by ecz

Per RAW the PC first check if his talents conform to the list for a certain job, then he asks that job. Instead I imagine a system where the player first asks for a Job, than the GM checks if that job (or another similar) is available considering a lot of parameters set by the rules (including the talents of the PC). If I have time I'll publish in future exactly what I mean.

Cool!

Originally Posted by ecz

About the fact players and GM decides how spend time I fully agree. But if the jobs table coming with the rules is too favorable (as it is the current TFT one) we'll have players that spend too much time working to improve their characters attributes through risk rolls and earning an inordinate quantity of money.

The part about getting enough experience for an attribute is broken, especially for high-point-total characters.

[Jackal]

Know what my FAVORITE part of "Lord of the Rings" was?

It was that bit where the Gaffer sits down with Frodo for his mid-year performance review. Riveting!

Jobs? As a game? No thanks. I do that IRL. I just don't think a glorified price list -- no matter how well though out -- has any place in a fantasy RPG: it's role-playing, people!

We need tools to create mythic adventures, not business plans.

(Unless of course we're talking about my "Fantasy Middle-Manager" league: now there's a wicked fun work-themed game!)

Just my $.02.

Cheers!

[JLV]

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But I do love the snark.

An economic system of some kind is an enormous plus for any game. It doesn't have to be detailed or complex, but it does need to outline the basics, because from there the GM will find it much easier to "wing" things and yet not completely screw up the world's monetary systems or trade routes. Handwavium works just peachy, right up to the point where someone asks a question. After that, the wheels sort of start coming off, and if your answer is proven inconsistent down the line, the players start seeing the system as irrational and suspect you, the GM, of playing "against" them instead of with them. At that point you might as well start saving yourself the trouble of planning new adventures or whatever because your game will soon be ending.

Understanding and establishing some basic things in your game world (like gross economics, weather patterns, general geography, rough technology levels, etc.) is fundamental to establishing your game world. You can do it before play starts, or, in a Westmarches sort of way, but sooner or later you'll wind up doing it if you want to keep the game going. Choosing not to do it is certainly an option, and one which virtually guarantees your game world will fall apart in short order...as will your campaign.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by JLV

After that, the wheels sort of start coming off, and if your answer is proven inconsistent down the line, the players start seeing the system as irrational and suspect you, the GM, of playing "against" them instead of with them.

Yes, OK, excellent point. That is a genuine concern.

Originally Posted by JLV

Understanding and establishing some basic things in your game world (like gross economics, weather patterns, general geography, rough technology levels, etc.) is fundamental to establishing your game world.

Yes, again, you raise a good point.

BUT ...

How would it look if you elided all the stuff that happens between adventures?

Yeah, sure, there are some real nuggets to be found in interactions with NPCs in the bar. A world where you belong to The Black Company (dibs on writing that supplement!) would revolve around bars, to be honest.

But then again, Tolkien didn't spend a lot of time going over the foraging techniques as practiced in Ithilien by Faramir. Pipin didn't negotiate a stipend with the Guard. And I don't recall seeing a price list at the Prancing Pony in Bree.

When an adventure ends, why not just glide over mundane stuff and slide into the next hook?

"Well, you get some of that well-deserved rest you complained about missing in the woods -- and Esmeralda is certainly glad to see you back. The horses were getting restless and the hobbit was getting fat, when one morning, while out on your constitutional (on Physicer's orders) you spy a strange man striding across the glen: a man who looks vaguely familiar..."

Personally, my players never seemed to mind. But then again, perhaps that was just the expectations I'd set so they never asked for a richer, more in-depth treatment of daily life?

[Jim Kane]

My 2 Cents (if I may pun in an economical fashion):

I would be most interested in seeing TFT Economics addressed on a macro-level; being rules and systems specifically related to the generation and perpetuation of Trade-and-Commerce between villages, towns, city-states, countries, and realms - and how YOUR TFT CHARACTER factors into the Cidri economic-equation in game-terms; beyond the purchase of items and sustenance.

Or would that be wholly outside of the scope of the original vision of what TFT is, and is not?

Or, is that exactly what TFT needs to reach it's full potential, or needs to avoid to retain it's intended scope?

?

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

My 2 Cents (if I may pun in an economical fashion):

I would be most interested in seeing TFT Economics addressed on a macro-level; being rules and systems specifically related to the generation and perpetuation of Trade-and-Commerce between villages, towns, city-states, countries, and realms - and how YOUR TFT CHARACTER factors into the Cidri economic-equation in game-terms; beyond the purchase of items and sustenance.

Or would that be wholly outside of the scope of the original vision of what TFT is, and is not?

Or, is that exactly what TFT needs, or needs to avoid to retain it's intended scope?

?

Sandbox or amusement park?

IF you want sample milieu -- a setting, a starter world, as it were -- to populate, then yes, OK, I can see where having at least some kind of macroeconomic system would be required.

IF, however, you want a event resolution system you can drop into any old sandbox, then I'm not sure having "the" economic system will be of any use.

Case in point: I've always used pounds, shillings, pence & farthings (L, s, d, f) as currency: 4f to the d, 12d to the s, 20s to the L.

Simple, right?

Hey, don't laugh: that's how the entire Western world did it from the time of the Etruscans to the post-WWII reforms! It lasted in the UK until the 70's.

In my world, an economic system based on modern, 20th century notions of decimal currency is nonsensical. But that's just MY world. Works for precious few others, I bet!

One of the things I love about GURPS is how it encapsulated genres.

So why not give TFT the GURPS treatment? Keep the game-proper sharply focused on char gen and event resolution.

Then add milieu-specific expansions.
"Dark Ages"
"Romana Imperitrix Mundi"
"The Black Company Strikes Back." (dibs!)
"Gor: The LARP" (all yours!)

- Jack

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Jackal

But then again, Tolkien didn't spend a lot of time going over the foraging techniques as practiced in Ithilien by Faramir. Pipin didn't negotiate a stipend with the Guard. And I don't recall seeing a price list at the Prancing Pony in Bree.

Nor am I suggesting any such thing. And I note that we DID learn that pipeweed was a tradable commodity, that wagons brought toys and firecrackers (luxury goods) in for Bilbo's party from places as far away as Laketown and the Lonely Mountain, that the inn in Bree catered to travellers of all sorts, who presumably had some reason to be on the road other than liking to be in an inn...

Originally Posted by Jackal

When an adventure ends, why not just glide over mundane stuff and slide into the next hook?

By why should I and my players be forced to do so by the rules? Why shouldn't we have something that permits us to play in a somewhat coherent world instead of just merrily skipping over all that "in between" stuff? Some of the richest role-playing opportunities in the games I've played in have come up in the City State of the Invincible Overlord when players were tasked to escort a trade caravan to the Dwarves, or in the City of Grayhawk when they got tagged to go out into the hills and try to shut down orc raiding parties interfering with the city's trade -- how is that even a thing if you have no idea why it's important or what's actually being interfered with? And believe me, MY players DO ask those kinds of questions.

Originally Posted by Jackal

"Well, you get some of that well-deserved rest you complained about missing in the woods -- and Esmeralda is certainly glad to see you back. The horses were getting restless and the hobbit was getting fat, when one morning, while out on your constitutional (on Physicer's orders) you spy a strange man striding across the glen: a man who looks vaguely familiar..."

Personally, my players never seemed to mind. But then again, perhaps that was just the expectations I'd set so they never asked for a richer, more in-depth treatment of daily life?

That I can't answer, but I do know that my players wanted to know WHY the sword cost so much more in this area than the same thing cost over in that area there, and what was so important about THIS mining town as opposed to the other three the next kingdom over, and why a silver piece was the going rate for an overnight stay in this town, when 45 miles back it was 5 copper pieces. Things like that, if answered well, DO bring the world alive, and it makes it "feel" that much more real to them. Is it strictly necessary? No, but you would genuinely be surprised at the depth added to your game by something as simple as knowing WHY the prices for certain things are different *here* than they were *there*. And it took so very little effort on my part. About half an hour to set it up in the first place and then 15 or 20 minutes of "management" every ten or twelve game sessions, once they started traveling around a bit.

I'm not saying it's a "must," or that "you're doing it wrong" if you don't do what I did. What I AM saying is that you should give it a try some day. You might be amazed (truly; I was the first time I tried it) by how much easier it makes your life and how much more "into" your world your players get. It would really add to your world, even in a "Conan-esque" world such as the one you're telling us you prefer to run. It's nice to know that the quarterly jewel caravan is running from the gem mines of Agrapur across the Dunes of Salt to the markets of Khoraja where the gems and jewels will be sent out to dozens of other cities...suddenly, your players know why the caravan they're guarding is so important, or perhaps now have a better understanding of which caravan they want to raid...

[Jackal]

@JLV

OK, yeah, you sold me. I get it now. Many, many thanks for taking the time to spell it out! You've given me much to ponder.

Cheers!

[Jackal]

@Jim Kane:

Wait, this still means you're gonna do "Gor: The LARP", right?

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Jackal

@Jim Kane:

Wait, this still means you're gonna do "Gor: The LARP", right?

LOL!!! I am hesitant to imagine how many folks on here understand the implication of that reference... LOL!