[Middle Ages 1/Low Tech]Sword Quality/Material

RyanW · 10-18-2011, 11:19 PM

According to Middle Ages 1, prior to about 1000 AD, steel making was primitive enough that swords were pretty much exclusively either cheap (not much better than wrought iron) or fine (very fine? pattern welded). Is there any truth behind that, or does this not stand up to research?

mhd · 10-19-2011, 05:45 AM

As far as I remember, pattern-welding used to be pretty common, but not per se a sign of a (very) fine blade (are there any 3E katana fans left?). Merovingian swords had a pretty wide variety of hardening and iron composition, probably enough to justify the full spectrum of GURPS qualities.

DanHoward · 10-19-2011, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanW

According to Middle Ages 1, prior to about 1000 AD, steel making was primitive enough that swords were pretty much exclusively either cheap (not much better than wrought iron) or fine (very fine? pattern welded). Is there any truth behind that, or does this not stand up to research?

GURPS Middle Ages falls for the myth that pattern welding was some magical procedure that only produced fine quality blades. Pattern welding was the most common method of producing decent steel before the development of homogenous steel in the late middle ages. The other way was crucible steel. Both of these could produce blades ranging from cheap to very fine.

Mailanka · 10-19-2011, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanW

According to Middle Ages 1, prior to about 1000 AD, steel making was primitive enough that swords were pretty much exclusively either cheap (not much better than wrought iron) or fine (very fine? pattern welded). Is there any truth behind that, or does this not stand up to research?

If those cheap swords are just straight iron, wouldn't it make more sense to simply treat them as iron instead of steel?

Rupert · 10-19-2011, 06:24 AM

What kind of iron? What kind of steel? They weren't pure elemental iron, and had some carbon in them, so by some definitions they were steel, just an alloy that was a poor material for swords.

Really calling something 'iron' vs 'steel' is a pretty useless distinction, and I wish it would go away. Note that Cast Iron is a really high-carbon alloy.

Bruno · 10-19-2011, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert

Really calling something 'iron' vs 'steel' is a pretty useless distinction, and I wish it would go away. Note that Cast Iron is a really high-carbon alloy.

I'm with you here. Nearly useless terminology - although IIRC Cast Iron usually has silicon in there as well? Or is that just some kinds of cast iron?

mhd · 10-19-2011, 07:04 AM

For RPG purposes, is it actually likely for a PC to (intentionally) buy cheap, normal and fine swords locally at a given time in this period? As they're basically restricted to the elite, why would they buy low-quality weaponry if you can get your hands on something better? I'd understand it if you just can't get a decent quality blade, but would a single weaponsmith really say "I'll just hack something together" or "Well, I gotta use that cheap iron for something!"?

"Njorl, I'm glade you came to me to buy a sword. Well, we have this one, which our own smith made, this slightly better one by a smith made who's married and thus not always that deep in the mead. But I see you're a discerning customer, and as the owner of Ye Olde Sword Shoppe, I can show you our special deal: Illegally imported from the Franks, under a high personal cost, but if you pay with gold, not oxen, I'll throw in the scabbard for free!"

Mailanka · 10-19-2011, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert

What kind of iron? What kind of steel? They weren't pure elemental iron, and had some carbon in them, so by some definitions they were steel, just an alloy that was a poor material for swords.

Really calling something 'iron' vs 'steel' is a pretty useless distinction, and I wish it would go away. Note that Cast Iron is a really high-carbon alloy.

IDHMBWM and Low Tech might have changed things, but I was referring to GURPS terminology. In the core book, you can make a weapon out of, for example, bronze, iron or steel.

Rupert · 10-19-2011, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno

I'm with you here. Nearly useless terminology - although IIRC Cast Iron usually has silicon in there as well? Or is that just some kinds of cast iron?

'Normal' cast irons do, but some don't. It's nearly as useless a term as 'iron' or 'steel' are without qualifiers.

RyanW · 10-19-2011, 08:47 AM

Thanks everyone. You mostly confirmed what I was thinking, but wanted to get the opinions of people more knowledgeable on the topic than myself.

10-18-2011, 11:19 PM	#1
RyanW ☣ Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southeast NC	[Middle Ages 1/Low Tech]Sword Quality/Material According to Middle Ages 1, prior to about 1000 AD, steel making was primitive enough that swords were pretty much exclusively either cheap (not much better than wrought iron) or fine (very fine? pattern welded). Is there any truth behind that, or does this not stand up to research? __________________ RyanW - Actually one normal sized guy in three tiny trenchcoats.

10-19-2011, 05:45 AM	#2
mhd Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Land of the Beer, Home of the Dirndls	Re: [Middle Ages 1/Low Tech]Sword Quality/Material As far as I remember, pattern-welding used to be pretty common, but not per se a sign of a (very) fine blade (are there any 3E katana fans left?). Merovingian swords had a pretty wide variety of hardening and iron composition, probably enough to justify the full spectrum of GURPS qualities.

10-19-2011, 06:24 AM	#5
Rupert Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Wellington, NZ	Re: [Middle Ages 1/Low Tech]Sword Quality/Material What kind of iron? What kind of steel? They weren't pure elemental iron, and had some carbon in them, so by some definitions they were steel, just an alloy that was a poor material for swords. Really calling something 'iron' vs 'steel' is a pretty useless distinction, and I wish it would go away. Note that Cast Iron is a really high-carbon alloy. __________________ Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."

10-19-2011, 07:04 AM	#7
mhd Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Land of the Beer, Home of the Dirndls	Re: [Middle Ages 1/Low Tech]Sword Quality/Material For RPG purposes, is it actually likely for a PC to (intentionally) buy cheap, normal and fine swords locally at a given time in this period? As they're basically restricted to the elite, why would they buy low-quality weaponry if you can get your hands on something better? I'd understand it if you just can't get a decent quality blade, but would a single weaponsmith really say "I'll just hack something together" or "Well, I gotta use that cheap iron for something!"? "Njorl, I'm glade you came to me to buy a sword. Well, we have this one, which our own smith made, this slightly better one by a smith made who's married and thus not always that deep in the mead. But I see you're a discerning customer, and as the owner of Ye Olde Sword Shoppe, I can show you our special deal: Illegally imported from the Franks, under a high personal cost, but if you pay with gold, not oxen, I'll throw in the scabbard for free!"

10-19-2011, 08:47 AM	#10
RyanW ☣ Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southeast NC	Re: [Middle Ages 1/Low Tech]Sword Quality/Material Thanks everyone. You mostly confirmed what I was thinking, but wanted to get the opinions of people more knowledgeable on the topic than myself. __________________ RyanW - Actually one normal sized guy in three tiny trenchcoats.