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Old 08-26-2010, 09:26 AM   #41
Archangel Beth
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Default Re: Seraph Resonance

My take on it, though I still haven't cleaned the glass shards out of the drawer that has my APG in it, so I'm not consulting that book (and the Seraph resonance chapter is one that is pretty good in it, as I recall), and could be directly contradicted somewhere because I haven't had breakfast yet and forgot it, and I'm all for whatever works in a given game anyway.

If the answer Roy gives is, "I don't know," then the TRUTH is that Roy does not know, because Roy does not actually know Raven beyond sending Hell Cards now and then.

If Roy says, "Ontario, totally," then the TRUTH is that Roy does not know, etc., and is saying this lie because Sydney is a freaky person and Roy wants Sydney to go away now, plzkthx.

Now, the option of "Roy does not know the TRUTH but there is enough of a connection that the Seraph gets the TRUTH IS..." is kind of up to the GM. Is the GM running something of a mystery where the PCs have to find the right clues, and thus inflict Seraph resonance on the right people?

Or is the GM going, "...dude, why are you following up on the funny bit of color I left instead of the real clue? Why are you making me roleplay this diversion? Syd, work with me here; you want to go the other direction... Okay, FINE. Talk to Roy, see if I care."

If the GM likes to run mysteries (and the PCs like to play mysteries...) where the PCs have to follow up on clues in order to find the right people to unleash the Seraph at, then Roy does not know the TRUTH and the topic of "great places to hide out" has never come up even tangentially and the TRUTH is that "you followed the red herring, Syd." Maybe clever PCs can use Roy to lure Raven out. Maybe not. But he is no better a source of TRUTH than accosting a random passer-by on the street would be.

If the GM thinks this diversion is harming the flow of the game, then Roy and Raven did once have some conversation that touched on "great hideouts" just enough that the Symphony says, "But the TRUTH that Roy doesn't know is that Raven is in [actual place]."
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:35 PM   #42
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Default Re: Seraph Resonance

That is the difficult bit: gauging how much possible knowledge is required to allow access to the Truth Slot machine. And that is totally up to the GM.

The only generic rule or even suggestion of a rule I can see here is: If the person does not potentially have an answer, the best TRUTH you can get is a 'Ask again with someone else Dumas.'

What guidelines would I use for 'potential' knowledge?

*As mentioned by Beth: If Curtis had generic discussions on good hideouts with Raven.

* If Curtis had enough of a close relationship to know that Raven had a good friend in Dayton

* If Raven had trained Curtis at some point so he knew how she thought.

In brief, if Curtis could figure it out on his own (even if he had put no thought into it, but could potentially figure it out) the Seraph gets a shot at The TRUTH being more then 'Huh?'

* If Raven had deliberately deceived Curtis as to her whereabouts with an answer. I know this seems to contradict my previous statements, but by offering him a truth (an incorrect one, but an answer none the less) she opened herself up to Symphonic Scrutiny. Particularly if Curtis knew that she was lying to him when she told him.
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Old 08-26-2010, 10:32 PM   #43
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Default Re: Seraph Resonance

What constitutes "possible knowledge" is a fuzzy area, certainly. I'd probably rule as Beth suggests in the case of Roy. (Although I'd probably give more info on a Divine intervention. I'd let a DI get Truth about one person from any people who've had any contact with them.)

For the case of someone who does have regular contact with a subject, I generally think that if they get any information on the subject from someone else, they have "possible knowledge". If they ask a question, or are told information about the topic, they're an avenue to the Truth. So, in our Curtis example, if he had asked Raven last week "Where are you going to be?", the Seraph could get something. If Raven told him last night "I'm going away for a while", that would count too. Even if he had seen Raven just before she skipped town, asked "Where are you going?" and just got a shrug or an "I can't tell you", I'd still give the Seraph the Truth on a CD 6.

Basically, the only way to prevent "possible knowledge" from applying would be if neither side shared any information or asked for any information on the topic. Barring an extremely paranoid type, it's not going to be a common situation for most standard questions. And that level of paranoia has its own drawbacks: the person trying to maintain it either has to cut off all contact with people, or somehow prevent any people they do come in contact with from asking questions.

Now, some subjects will probably be easier to conceal. Asking Curtis "Is Raven a demon?" is likely to get a CD 6 result of "He doesn't know, and he can't imagine why you'd ask that", unless Raven had used supernatural powers in front of him or just told him she was something other than human.
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Old 08-26-2010, 10:37 PM   #44
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Default Re: Seraph Resonance

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
What constitutes "possible knowledge" is a fuzzy area, certainly. I'd probably rule as Beth suggests in the case of Roy. (Although I'd probably give more info on a Divine intervention. I'd let a DI get Truth about one person from any people who've had any contact with them.)

For the case of someone who does have regular contact with a subject, I generally think that if they get any information on the subject from someone else, they have "possible knowledge". If they ask a question, or are told information about the topic, they're an avenue to the Truth. So, in our Curtis example, if he had asked Raven last week "Where are you going to be?", the Seraph could get something. If Raven told him last night "I'm going away for a while", that would count too. Even if he had seen Raven just before she skipped town, asked "Where are you going?" and just got a shrug or an "I can't tell you", I'd still give the Seraph the Truth on a CD 6.

Basically, the only way to prevent "possible knowledge" from applying would be if neither side shared any information or asked for any information on the topic. Barring an extremely paranoid type, it's not going to be a common situation for most standard questions. And that level of paranoia has its own drawbacks: the person trying to maintain it either has to cut off all contact with people, or somehow prevent any people they do come in contact with from asking questions.

Now, some subjects will probably be easier to conceal. Asking Curtis "Is Raven a demon?" is likely to get a CD 6 result of "He doesn't know, and he can't imagine why you'd ask that", unless Raven had used supernatural powers in front of him or just told him she was something other than human.

I would agree that that falls within the GM gray area, though it's a tad more generous then mine.

Barring that, do you agree with the other descriptors and how they function? And does it help nail down how to carve out the resonance for 4e?
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Old 08-26-2010, 10:51 PM   #45
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Barring that, do you agree with the other descriptors and how they function? And does it help nail down how to carve out the resonance for 4e?
Your earlier summary seemed pretty much accurate, yes, although I disagree with the standard you seem to be using for "min-maxing". The balance of the trait has to take into account some degree of optimization.
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Old 08-27-2010, 07:10 AM   #46
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Default Re: Seraph Resonance

I would just design the system and let the munchkins take care of themselves. They are good that way. Don't need any GM or game designer's help to mess with the system. However, what did you have in mind?

On a Divine Intervention, the Sky's the Limit, purely up to GM whim, from "Thou Shalt Find Raven perched in 1313 Mockingbird Lane, Dayton Ohio, Latitude...." to a temporary Cherub Nemesis, attunement, to "Thou Shalt Not Find Raven. Seek the Jester Instead." (if the GM planned on killing Raven and had a new direction for the players to go). But a DI is a .5% chance. A CD of 6 happens 16% of the time, so the DI gets way more latitude.

I had missed the idea of going to someone else for potential knowledge...but that seems to be going out of the way to make Seraphs uber plot killers, not to control them so you can preserve mystery. That is a matter of GM taste.
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Old 08-27-2010, 10:46 AM   #47
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I would just design the system and let the munchkins take care of themselves.
I think you're harming the discussion here by characterizing people as "munchkins". It's not a bad thing to want to optimize your character to do their job properly. It happens in real life all the time - you see very few soldiers in special ops squads who are average joes with no special talents, for example, nor do you see a lot of high-paid research scientists who only got B+ in math and chemistry in high school.
As I've said before, if you're going to ignore optimized characters and only assume the purely average in your scenarios, you will miss the balance issues of traits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
I had missed the idea of going to someone else for potential knowledge...but that seems to be going out of the way to make Seraphs uber plot killers, not to control them so you can preserve mystery.
The Seraph ability to get useful knowledge from bystanders is, to me, one of the core parts of the ability. As I already explained, if you take away the Seraph ability to learn Truth that the subject doesn't know, you essentially make CD 6 meaningless.

Basically, I believe that In Nomine is simply not a game where mystery plots are going to be super-challenging to angels. If you want to run a game with lots of mysteries in it, don't run an angelic campaign - run demons, Soldiers, Sorcerers, maybe Ethereals, but not angels. Or if you want to run an "Angels, P.I." game, you'll need to very carefully vet the characters and eliminate a pretty broad swathe of character options.
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Old 08-27-2010, 11:05 AM   #48
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The Seraph ability to get useful knowledge from bystanders is, to me, one of the core parts of the ability. As I already explained, if you take away the Seraph ability to learn Truth that the subject doesn't know, you essentially make CD 6 meaningless.
Well I think it's clear from the aforementioned rules that you can't drag a random dude off the street and get Truth about something or someone said dude hasn't even heard of. The person you're questioning has to at least know what it is you're talking about, they may not know anything about it beyond it's existence, but they have to have heard of the person or event or whatever you're talking about, otherwise the only Truth you're going to get is "This person has never heard of the thing/person you are asking about and thinks you are a loon who should be arrested for harassing random strangers."
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Old 08-27-2010, 12:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
The Seraph ability to get useful knowledge from bystanders is, to me, one of the core parts of the ability. As I already explained, if you take away the Seraph ability to learn Truth that the subject doesn't know, you essentially make CD 6 meaningless.

Basically, I believe that In Nomine is simply not a game where mystery plots are going to be super-challenging to angels. If you want to run a game with lots of mysteries in it, don't run an angelic campaign - run demons, Soldiers, Sorcerers, maybe Ethereals, but not angels. Or if you want to run an "Angels, P.I." game, you'll need to very carefully vet the characters and eliminate a pretty broad swathe of character options.
I think that the Seraph ability IS very powerful. A Seraph lied to by Curtis can, on a successful resonance roll, reveal not only that he is lying, but the actual Truth, will he or nil he (one in six of the time). That is AWESOME all by itself in the very narrowest interpretations. Where else will you get something like that in technology? But it needs to be confined to possible knowledge.

But if your interpretation stretches it to bystanders like Roy the Clueless, who just happens to randomly know Raven in a absolutely unrelated manner, or Jim who happens to know both Raven and the Rental Car guy who rented her the car she drove one way to Dayton (but has no knowledge of these unrelated facts), or the girl in the club who if she was a lip reader might have seen the wrong answer when Raven told Curtis, then it's no wonder that you think mysteries are useless in IN.

My interpretation runs something like this: The character speaking needs to have been touched by The TRUTH, even if only in a negative fashion. A Curtis who really knows Raven well, hence could guess at a location; a Curtis lied to by Raven on this specific question; a random discussion about hideouts which reveal her heart; all mean he has been touched by The Truth or it's negative. This Truth is strictly touted by what the speaker says, not what the Seraph wants to know or what she asked. Roy? Absolutely not. Nor the girl who saw the conversation (unless she was a lip reader). A person who heard the conversation but forgot it, I would certainly allow a CD 6 to reveal the Truth. But that is my ruling. It is strict, but it's also an awesome power.

Last edited by JCD; 08-27-2010 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 08-27-2010, 01:02 PM   #50
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I think that the Seraph ability IS very powerful. A Seraph lied to by Curtis can, on a successful resonance roll, reveal not only that he is lying, but the actual Truth,

But if your interpretation stretches it to bystanders like Roy the Clueless,
Sorry, I should have been clearer - I was counting Curtis among the "bystanders", whereas Roy wouldn't be even that. But the Seraph resonance, by revealing not merely the presence or absence of lies but also the motivation for lying and the truth the subject believes, still seriously undercuts a great deal of mysteries. With one decent interrogation, a Seraph can gain a great deal of information that would normally take a long period of interrogation, re-interrogation, fact-checking, and so forth.
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