Seraphim of Dominic and the US court system

[Keth]

In the final analysis it's a job that will incur dissonance from time to time, despite all of the Seraph's well-practised safeguards.

But if Dominic cares enough about preventing the innocent from slipping through the cracks to assign you, who are you to refuse him? At least you have a better-than-usual case for asking Dominic to remove said dissonance ("I got it from following your orders in the Role you gave me" probably carries some weight with even the harshest heavenly Superior- especially if he Knows you're telling the truth).

[chris the cynic]

Originally Posted by Sagitta

The question is whether it is dissonant for a Seraph to convince poeple that someone else's lies are true. Citing as evidence the film Liar, Liar, I put it to you that it is.

Citing roles I put it to you that it is not.

I could be wrong but given that so many angels are presenting a lie to the whole world and convincing people that they are human I don't think that is how it is. If a Seraph maintains a role its actions in that regard, while in no way inherently false, are to convince people that a lie is true.

If Seraphs are allowed to convince people that one lie (that they and others are human) is true without dissonance I don't see why doing the same for another lie would cause dissonance.

Seraphs can't lie, and they probably don't like to mislead, but I think the symphony allows them to make others believe lies.

As I said, I could be wrong. Official clarification on the extent of the Seraph dissonance conditions might help.

[Fade]

If working as a lawyer who represents someone in court cases is inevitably going to make a Seraph dissonance, there's a much simpler solution:

Just don't assign a Seraph to that Role.

Instead, send a nice friendly Mercurian or Elohite with all those marvelous insights to the humans involved in the case in as the lawyer who acts in court, and let the Seraph have a Role as someone else in the law firm. Paralegal, a lawyer who doesn't do court cases, secretary, whatever. At which point the Seraph can screen everything for Truth, keep her mouth shut except when telling the angel with the lawyer Role who's lying, and avoid dissonance altogether.

Seraphim have a hard enough time on the corporeal as it is; there's no reason for Dominic, of all Archangels, to put them in a position where they'll incur dissonance as part of their job. There are plenty of other Choirs who can take the position (or even Soldiers and Saints, for that matter) while a Seraph takes a much quieter background Role and simply advises.

It's useful to remember that angels can often be much more effective by doing something subtle and quiet than by taking the flashy and obvious positions; why be the president of the company (where all the demonic attention will focus) when you can be the receptionist who knows what's going on throughout the building instead?

[milliken]

Originally Posted by chris the cynic

Seraphs can't lie, and they probably don't like to mislead, but I think the symphony allows them to make others believe lies.

I don't think it necessarily extends as far as making people believe lies -- that's pretty clearly Balseraph territory....

But they are definitely allowed to lead humans to believe partial truths, when Heaven demands it of them. Roles are not lies, per se, but partial truths -- a Seraph is the being that its Role says it is, but that is only part of what the Seraph actually is.

There's a range, of course -- Seraphim of the Wind are quite good at leaving people with the wrong impression without actually lying. (And there are Judgment Servitors keeping a dubious eye on most of them.) Seraphim of Litheroy are just the opposite -- they can't stop themselves from blabbing the truth, even when they're not supposed to. (Except for higher orders that they not actually tell everyone that they are angels, apparently.)

---Walter

[Archangel Beth]

Fade speaks wisdom.

The other side of the matter is that, in a game, if you want a Seraph of Judgment lawyer... You may need to fudge "reality" so that the Seraph not only never lies, but never misleads unjustly. I.e., a Seraph of Judgment, defending a guilty person, will lose the case. He's not even trying to win it! He's only trying to make sure the punishment is just.

Now I skitter towards bed, after a few more threads...

[chris the cynic]

Originally Posted by milliken

I don't think it necessarily extends as far as making people believe lies -- that's pretty clearly Balseraph territory....

Are you saying that it is all right for a Seraph to maintain a person's belief in a lie but not to create that belief?

So if, for example, a Seraph were leading people to believe that it was human, as Seraphs on earth must do quite often, that would be ok if everyone already believed it was human, which is expected, but if it were to take someone who didn't believe it was human (probably someone who was paranoid, delusional, or exceptionally perceptive) and, without ever lying, make that person believe it was human, that would be dissonant.

Is that what you are saying?

I like the idea that it isn't just that the Seraph can't speak a lie but also that it can not create one, but I'm not sure where the line between creating a lie and allowing one to come into existence is drawn. How active would a Seraph have to be in making someone believe a lie to become dissonant?

[Alejandro]

Other than offending Khalid, what is wrong with simply saying. "I am Izbekiel, Angel of Prayers Answered By Long Lost Kin, Seraphim Friend of Sages, loyal Servitor of Yves, Archangel of Destiny. You are to come with me to Mesopotamia on a matter of grave urgency."?

As a GM, it's hard for me to say no to that sort of thing. The poor smuck is probably going to be entirely shell shocked by the pure, totally uncut with deleted scenes and alternate ending, hammer blow of the Symphony. He could tell himself that "Izbekiel" is clearly off his meds but, either way, he's going to want to do what the man says.

In my opinion a Seraph should either remain quiet or speak the brutal, honest, refreshingly candid, no B.S. capital "T" Truth. That's what makes them special. The idea of the Holiest of Holy sneaking around the Truth like mere Mercurians leaves the taste of bile in my mouth and the scent of brimstone in my nostrils.

Consider, as a Seraph you have total license and the express permission of the Almighty Creator of the Known Universe to say: Those shoes look awful. Your daughter is no longer a virgin. Your Husband left you because you now weigh more than he does. I killed your cat, you should know why, deal with it. Grieve not, your son now resides with he who is called "I AM" and what mood does it set when a Seraph of War sings out "You are an offense to God and I will personally purge thee from creation and expunge your very name from history. In the darkest pit of Hell what happens here will be an object lesson such that will strike fear in Beleth herself."

Compare with: I am called "Izzy". Maybe you should try the black ones. Mindi is very fond of her new boyfriend. Things will work out. Your son is, ah, outside the Great State of Vermont. I haven't seen fluffy for three days now. And the not so scary, "That last thing you did hurt my feelings."

And another thing, how is a role a lie? For example: Det. Gladys Guerrera is an Angel, everyone says so. She has been with the Police for 10 years and never rests. Best of all, when she tells you, "I am Detective Guerrera, I will protect you and you will come to no harm." All doubt is purged from your being, because the words came from God, Det. Guerrera is his instrument.

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[Keth]

Other than offending Khalid, what is wrong with simply saying. "I am Izbekiel, Angel of Prayers Answered By Long Lost Kin, Seraphim Friend of Sages, loyal Servitor of Yves, Archangel of Destiny. You are to come with me to Mesopotamia on a matter of grave urgency."?

To quote 'Feast of Blades', p. 18, in the section on Litheroy;

The one secret they are required to keep- not by the will of Litheroy, but by the Will Above,- is their angelic nature. Mankind is not ready for the greatest revelation of all, and angels of Litheroy are expected to show discretion when using their powers on the corporeal plane, just like other angels.

Emphasis mine, of course.

So the short answer to your question, in-canon, would appear to be "Because to do so is against the stated will of God".

In my opinion an even more compelling reason is that without the need to try and withhold truth, maintain discretion, and pass for human, there's no inherent dramatic conflict to playing a Seraph. And they become considerably less fun. Your mileage may vary of course.

[Alejandro]

If I were to debate the point, I would base my argument on the word "Discretion". Telling a meat packer in Spokane is one thing, getting caught on CNN is another. I would also point to the existance of Soldiers, they are a part of Mankind and are aware, is their existance a violation of God's will? ("Discrete" an interesting example of a word whose degree is not fixed. How discrete does God want his Angels to be: Very discrete? Mostly discrete?) See also Performance - "Hail Mary!" In Nomine, 1st printing, pg 47 Does the performance of a Song known at level 1 or 2 violate the will of God? If so, I have my doubts about the might of God's will as it applys to Angels on the Corporeal Plane.

Seraphim, as I understand them, have an inherent desire to speak the truth. The last few posts seemed to concern themselves with a, "Just how far can I push this before I smell cooking meat." mentality that got under my skin. (Excellent examples of connotation verses denotation, metaphor)

If it is not entirely true, it is a lie. Simple. Lies bug Seraphs. Lies people tell themselves bug Seraphim. Lies other people tell, bug Seraphim. (More examples of entirely true statements using an alternate meaning of the word "Bug")

The saving grace for Seraphim is that our language is inaccurate. Being an "Angel" has several different meanings, being "Human" has several meanings and because of which a canny Seraph can speak with utter confidence.

To me the line in the sand (there I go again) is willful deception, by action or inaction.

For the record, the big reason that most Celestials in my game keep their nature on the q.t. is more pragmatic, the other side is listening...


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[Archangel Beth]

The other thing that should be noted -- aside from the previously mentioned part about keeping angelic natures a secret -- is that there's a spectrum of Seraphim. Seraphim of the Wind are specifically granted a Choir Attunement that makes it easier for them to dance around the truth like a Texas Politician [1]. In the core rules, even the sometimes-overblown flavortext says, "Few Seraphim [...] have any sense of tact." Few is not None. Down a bit, it says, "To avoid [dissonance], many Seraphim have become adept at the art of 'conversational misdirection.' Not so much a skill as a rationalization, they resort to this when approached with uncomfortable questions. [...] A Seraph may find it distasteful to stand by while anyone [...] tells a lie, but he will make no effort to clarify someone's facts if it might draw him into revealing more than he cares to."

Essentially, if Seraphim aren't allowed some freedom of evasion, they become one-note characters who aren't all that fun to play. While there's certainly a gray area (which Dominic's Servitors always worry about) between necessary misleadings ("that wasn't your cat; that was a demon from Hell, and we had to kill it" just isn't appropriate, most times) and outright dissonant lies, that gray area allows more roleplaying opportunities. If Seraphim were always telling the entire truth, every time, they couldn't be let outside without a keeper and a muzzle, and possibly an electric collar.

It's a valid setting choice to decide that Seraphim are the least-represented of the major Choirs, on Earth, and that they never get a Role or can only have very limited ones... But it's not the default setting assumption, and a GM should make note of that to inform his or her players as needed.



[Footnote 1: If no one else remembers the "Texas Two-Step" song from the musical... What was it, The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas? ...I will headdesk.]