Strength and armor vs agility and cleverness

[hcobb]

Wimpy Guy, Human, age 20
ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, MA 12
Talents include: Knife, Pole Weapons Expertise, Running, Shield Expertise
Weapons: Javelin (1d), Dagger (1d-1)
Armor: Small Shield stops 2 hits

vs

Strongman, Human, age 20
ST 14, DX 9 (7), IQ 9, MA 12 (10)
Talents include: Crossbow, Running, Sword, Toughness II
Weapons: 2-Handed Sword (3d-1), Heavy Crossbow (3d), Dagger (1d-1)
Armor: Toughness II and leather armor stop 4 hits

Since my Wimpy Guy only averages 3.5 damage and this will bounce off of 4 points of protection surely somebody will come online and play the Strongman, or do you'll admit that ST is a dump stat?

[Rolando]

With that ST and DX I would play it with a bastard sword and light shield instead.

I think ST is as much a dump stats as any other if you don't make good use of it or don't make a functional character with the high stat concept. For example a mage with IQ:14 and DX:8 and leather armor, with only thrown and missile spells.

But I'm just starting to get the hang of TFT, so maybe it is a dump stat until a certain experience level (?).

[larsdangly]

Indeed; don't take this challenge unless you are feeling like getting punked - it is a pure strawman argument. No one who understands the game would design such a character to have an adj.DX of 7.

If you are new to the game, this is one of those arguments that is starting off on a flawed premise. If you want to understand how these trade offs work, you need to match up your low ST, skilled combatant with a similarly well designed high ST and/or armored combatant.

[phiwum]

For beginning characters, I think ST 12 is a sweet spot. Toughness and 2d damage are useful and it leaves enough points for a decent DX. You need IQ 9 for Toughness and maybe IQ 10 for Shield Expertise, so that leaves 10 or 11 for DX.

Overdoing ST is usually a loser strategy in a one-on-one fight, I reckon, because DX matters. But that doesn't make ST a dump stat and an RPG isn't all about one-on-one matchups. A high ST tank can help protect vulnerable characters even if he can't land a blow worth a damn.

[hcobb]

Noarmor Dude, Human, age 20
ST 12, DX 11 , IQ 9, MA 10
Talents include: Crossbow, Missile Weapons III, Shield, Sword, Toughness
Weapons: Broadsword (2d), Dagger (1d-1), Light Crossbow (2d)
Armor: Toughness and Small Shield stop 2 hits

The strong man of the party, he stands behind the smart and agile weapon experts and wizards to provide the firepower while they defend. When he breaks the crossbow he goes up to the front line.

[larsdangly]

Starting characters with ST between 8 and 14 can be competitive (though 10-13 is the sweet spot) because you can trade off damage and/or special effects for DX without straying too far from the optimal zone.

Starting characters with anywhere from 0 to 6 points of protection can be competitive, with a pretty smooth trade off between protection and offensive output, provided you don't let your adjDX drop too low (say, below 9).

You can eventually combine high(ish) ST and high protection without becoming absurdly low in adjDX, but this demands a stat total of 35 or so. Starting characters with both exceptionally high ST and exceptionally high armor protection obviously don't have enough stat points to also keep their adjDX in the zone where attacks have a decent chance of success, and so they become uncompetitive at anything other than goofy utility roles in a group.

[larsdangly]

Let me elaborate with some statistics: Below is a short table showing the trade-off between ST, DX and average damage output per turn for a starting character, assuming they are using the highest damage non-polearm melee weapon allowed by their ST and do not suffer from any DX penalties from armor, shields or encumbrance. Of course there are many complex 'rock/paper/scissors' elements that come into play when you factor in talents, exotic weapons, missiles, armor (which sets a threshold above which you have to reach for damage) and tactics of multiple combatants on a side. Nevertheless, this measure of 'brute force' offensive output gives you a good sense of how much you gain or sacrifice by raising ST and lowering DX (or visa versa):

ST DX avg. damage per turn
8 16 2.4
9 15 3.3
10 14 4.5
11 13 5.0
12 12 5.2
13 11 5.3
14 10 4.8
15 9 3.9
16 8 3.0

(sorry about the formatting of this; it looked good when I typed it!)

To put the OP in this context, a character with ST 14 and adjDX 7 has an offensive output, in average damage per turn with a non-polearm melee weapon, is 1.5 — so much worse than the typical range that you wouldn't seriously consider it unless there were some special factor you were trying to bring into play.

Armor has a complex effect on this sort of calculus because its cost to the wearer, as a reduction in offensive output, is easy to estimate but the benefit to the wearer totally depends on the sorts of attacks that will be aimed your way.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

...No one who understands the game would design such a character to have an adj.DX of 7.

...you need to match up your low ST, skilled combatant with a similarly well designed high ST and/or armored combatant.

I have a random character generator spreadsheet to help me get seeds for my "Character Collections" volumes. I assign armor based on the presumption that a fighter won't ever let their effective DX drop below X.

My current assumption is X is 9, as 8 gives "hits one time in four" and that seems like less fun (and matches well with Babe Ruth).

What are your assumptions for what makes an effective character? Does it depend on ST as well (I need high adjDX with my rapier because I must hit many times; I can afford lower adjDX with a Battle Axe because I need only hit once)?

[hcobb]

My current tftcalc rolls 4 dice vs DX for each armor and if it makes the roll with that armor it picks it, then considers the next armor up the chain.

[tomc]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

What are your assumptions for what makes an effective character? Does it depend on ST as well (I need high adjDX with my rapier because I must hit many times; I can afford lower adjDX with a Battle Axe because I need only hit once)?

I use 9 as a minimum adjDX most of the time. It gets tiresome for players when they keep missing.

Though the occasional NPC tank with a big weapon and plate armor can still be nasty if they get lucky. If you make the roll, it doesn't matter what your DX was...