Close Combat is to far to reach!

[zoncxs]

I have been searching all over the fourms for some clarity on this:

when are you in close combat?

lets say you have 2 fighters, one is unarmed the other has 2 swords (reach 1) . both are 2 yards away from each other. the unarmed fighter (named blue) goes first.

turn 1 = Blue takes a step and does AoD increase parry.

Red (2sword person) takes a step and dual weapon attacks. blue responds by slipping in and dodges and parries both attacks. they are now both in the same hex.

turn 2 = blue is in close combat with red and strikes at reds arm, red does a retreating dodge. blue then steps in again into close combat.

red is still in the same hex as blue....

does red attacks suffer from having to attack in close combat? red can step back and attack but blue can then slip in again, keeping in close combat.

I am trying to figure out when a person suffers from close combat (taking the penalties to attacks and parries with weapons that have a reach of 1+ in close combat etc)

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

red is still in the same hex as blue....

does red attacks suffer from having to attack in close combat? red can step back and attack but blue can then slip in again, keeping in close combat

Unless red uses his step to step out of blue's hex, red will suffer from being at 'C' instead of '1'. The fact that blue will slip in again only modifies blue's defense, not red's attack.

If red has multiple attacks, his subsequent attacks should proceed as if blue was still '1' hex away. Blue's defensive modifiers for the slip will apply to all of his defenses against red. See the Retreat section on p. B377 for clarification.

[Grey_Fox]

From my basic (and i stress basic!) understanding of the system what have written sounds right, i found the same issue with zombies in a modern game where the PCs were using guns and would just continually step back. The trick is that you need to trap the second person against a wall so they can’t take the step back maneuver and are then forced to stay in close combat, as a side note this actually added more tension in the zombie game as this situation started to come up, as a GM it was very satisfying.

[zoncxs]

the thing is that at the beginning and end of every turn after turn 2 they are in the same hex. they start in the same hex when the turn begins and end in the same hex when the turn ends. blue is moving with red keeping close.

edit:: what if blue always chooses to wait for red to step away to move in? with that it becomes:

red steps back, blues wait triggers and he steps with red, now red will either have to keep moving back (which means attacks are at 9 or less if red wants to attack) or attack right then and there at the penalty for attacking in close combat no?

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

the thing is that at the beginning and end of every turn after turn 2 they are in the same hex. they start in the same hex when the turn begins and end in the same hex when the turn ends. blue is moving with red keeping close.

They are on the same hex at the beginning and end of red's turn; but in-between, red is 1 hex away long enough to attack with his '1' reach weapon(s) without penalty.

Originally Posted by zoncxs

edit:: what if blue always chooses to wait for red to step away to move in? with that it becomes:

red steps back, blues wait triggers and he steps with red, now red will either have to keep moving back (which means attacks are at 9 or less if red wants to attack) or attack right then and there at the penalty for attacking in close combat no?

That would work; all red's '1' reach attacks would be at a penalty for being used at 'C'.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

turn 1 = Blue takes a step and does AoD increase parry.

Red (2sword person) takes a step and dual weapon attacks. blue responds by slipping in and dodges and parries both attacks. they are now both in the same hex.

turn 2 = blue is in close combat with red and strikes at reds arm, red does a retreating dodge. blue then steps in again into close combat.

This should be:
Blue turn 1: step and AoD
Red turn 1: step and attack
Blue turn 2: step into close combat and attack - Reds actions at any penalty for close combat (IDHMBWM)
Red turn 2: step out of close combat and attack without cc penalty.
Blue turn 3: step into close combat...

As for "Wait for Red to step away and I'll step with him"
A: red is already away
B: if he wasn't you couldn't step because you'd bump into him as your Wait would come before his step.

So, Blue stepping into CC after Red has stepped away Is blue following red.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

edit:: what if blue always chooses to wait for red to step away to move in? with that it becomes:

red steps back, blues wait triggers and he steps with red, now red will either have to keep moving back (which means attacks are at 9 or less if red wants to attack) or attack right then and there at the penalty for attacking in close combat no?

When does he declare this Wait? It can't be the turn he stepped into close combat, that's his action for that turn. If blue's turn happens when they are already in close combat, then sure, he can Wait until red steps out, interrupt red's action and step in, keeping him at C. But it's risky, if Red does something else on his turn, say tries an attack permitted in close combat, blue's Wait never triggers and he's forfeited his turn! When his next turn comes around admittedly he is still at C, but if he wants to continue to ensure that he needs to Wait again....

[Michele]

The good thing here is that we have detailed rules for grappling. In the situation described above, my guess is that the unarmed fighter would keep stepping in after the opponent's retreat only if he wanted, for some tactical reason, to force the opponent back - and it would be risky. Barring that, with two empty hands, I'd suggest at least one arm grapple. If that's successful (and chances are it will), then two-sword guy has to break free before he can step back.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

This should be:
Blue turn 1: step and AoD
Red turn 1: step and attack
Blue turn 2: step into close combat and attack - Reds actions at any penalty for close combat (IDHMBWM)
Red turn 2: step out of close combat and attack without cc penalty.
Blue turn 3: step into close combat...

This is on the right track, but throw away the numbers, so I think it's:

Blue turn: step and AoD
Red turn: step and attack (blue slips in on his defense)
Blue turn (at C): attack with CC penalties (red defends at CC penalties)
Red turn: step out of C and attack without CC penalty (blue defends as not in CC)
Blue turn: step into CC...

Numbering the turns creates the (wrong) impression that there is some overarching "Turn 1". There's not, get in the habit of thinking of GURPS turns as working like the word does in normal English, and having zero duration, and not as segments of universal time.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

This should be:
Blue turn 1: step and AoD
Red turn 1: step and attack
Blue turn 2: step into close combat and attack - Reds actions at any penalty for close combat (IDHMBWM)
Red turn 2: step out of close combat and attack without cc penalty.
Blue turn 3: step into close combat...

As for "Wait for Red to step away and I'll step with him"
A: red is already away
B: if he wasn't you couldn't step because you'd bump into him as your Wait would come before his step.

So, Blue stepping into CC after Red has stepped away Is blue following red.

you are forgetting the defense, there are offense and defense so it is like this:

Blue turn 1: step and AoD (distance between them is 1yd)
Red turn 1: step and attack (no distance), blue defense is to slip in (CC).
Blue turn 2: Is in close combat and uses wait "when red moves away I move with"
Red turn 2: step out of close combat, Blues wait triggers since red moved away and blue steps in keeping in close combat. red can either attack at penalty for close combat or try to continue to move away (if the GM allows it, I would not since red declared to only take a step back to attack.)

because of what happened on turn 2 it basically made the turn order go from blue => red to red => blue. every turn blue takes a "wait or" so he can stay in close combat.