Close Combat: What to have and what to watch out for

[Arandmoor]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Take as many levels of Dirty Fighting as you can get away with.

Is that in Martial Arts?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Arandmoor

Yeah, I hadn't planned to grapple anyone while their buddies just sat there and watched. If I had to the idea was to try and pull some Sam Fisher dirt-baggery, like grabbing someone from behind and dragging them into the shadows.

I was hoping there would be a way to pull off the classic scene where all you see is a pair of hands come out of a dark recess and some dude just disappears with his buddies none the wiser until it's way too late.

Sure, it might be tough, but if it's possible I want to make sure I've got all the necessary tools.

Ah, sentry removal.

I'm...not sure how well that's documented. There might be something useful in Martial Arts: Fairburn Close Combat System. The real challenge there is less the grab (grabbing someone by surprise is laughably easy) or the kill (cutting a throat of someone in that position may not be easy but it's not that hard) but rather making sure they don't make any noise. No shouting, screaming, gurgling, dropping things, discharging weapons...

As I said, I'm not sure how well that's documented. The easiest way to succeed would be with the GM just not wanting to emphasize those problems.


Of course even with silent removal, NPCs may not be as prone to not noticing that their buddy is no longer present as video-game enemies or movie mooks in that sort of scene. Again unless the GM is willingly playing along.

[Kromm]

Also, if "TL3" really means "TL(Fantasy)," you'll want backup plans for dealing with large animals and monsters. Most are a lot stronger than humans can hope to be . . . and the ones that don't use weapons have scary abilities like Claws, Lifting ST, Sharp Teeth, Strikers, and Striking ST . . . and more than a few have native DR and/or high-powered forms of Injury Tolerance, which can make grappling completely ineffective. Some also have attacks with the Aura modifier, or just Spines. And then there's Slippery.

For instance, grappling with high-end undead means uselessly strangling a neck that doesn't matter (it doesn't breathe) and trying to stab vitals that also don't matter (it isn't alive) while it radiates cold or disease or something else "for free" because you were silly enough to touch it. Grappling a lion or a big snake is likewise ill-advised, since it can break free easily and is optimized for close-in battles. And forget about even trying to grapple SM +1 or larger dragons and giants with many times human ST!

If that's an issue in the setting, then invest at least a little in the ability to use a serious battlefield weapon – such as a spear or a sword – or you'll be stuck fighting only humans, unless you're suicidal. Especially in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and games inspired by it, humans and human-scale humanoids are an almost negligible proportion of likely enemies.

[SimonAce]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Also, if "TL3" really means "TL(Fantasy)," you'll want backup plans for dealing with large animals and monsters. Most are a lot stronger than humans can hope to be . . . and the ones that don't use weapons have scary abilities like Claws, Lifting ST, Sharp Teeth, Strikers, and Striking ST . . . and more than a few have native DR and/or high-powered forms of Injury Tolerance, which can make grappling completely ineffective. Some also have attacks with the Aura modifier, or just Spines. And then there's Slippery.

For instance, grappling with high-end undead means uselessly strangling a neck that doesn't matter (it doesn't breathe) and trying to stab vitals that also don't matter (it isn't alive) while it radiates cold or disease or something else "for free" because you were silly enough to touch it. Grappling a lion or a big snake is likewise ill-advised, since it can break free easily and is optimized for close-in battles. And forget about even trying to grapple SM +1 or larger dragons and giants with many times human ST!

If that's an issue in the setting, then invest at least a little in the ability to use a serious battlefield weapon – such as a spear or a sword – or you'll be stuck fighting only humans, unless you're suicidal.

Good advice as always Herr Kromm. May I add though there are various power ups and abilities that can be used to compensate such as an Imbument or other advantage.

Also some nice magic plate armor makes up for a lot of nasty undead attacks, claws and such. It's also quite period as well.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Arandmoor

Is that in Martial Arts?

PU2:Perks, and IIRC also in DF somewhere.

[Kalzazz]

Plate armor can put a real dent in efforts to damage foes if foes are wearing it

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by SimonAce

Also some nice magic plate armor makes up for a lot of nasty undead attacks, claws and such. It's also quite period as well.

If it's TL3, plate armor - unless it's made of expensive bronze - isn't period, because iron/steel plate isn't available until TL4. If it's TL 3+1^ like most Fantasy (including DF), well, that's a different story. Of course, if we're going with DF, a grappler would be well served having spiked plate armor.

[Arandmoor]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Plate armor can put a real dent in efforts to damage foes if foes are wearing it

On the bright side, I won't be the only one having trouble with foes in plate armor. It's pretty universally annoying unless you have an air/weather mage.

And, it is 3+1 fantasy, but if big things are going to be a huge problem (have a meeting with my GM to discuss my character/the campaign setting) I can just take enemies to make sure every single game session we get mobbed by cultists or something so I get to regularly scratch that itch.

I'm not stupid enough to try to wrestle a fire elemental.

...though...if I could...it would be totally epic :)

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Arandmoor

On the bright side, I won't be the only one having trouble with foes in plate armor. It's pretty universally annoying unless you have an air/weather mage.

And, it is 3+1 fantasy, but if big things are going to be a huge problem (have a meeting with my GM to discuss my character/the campaign setting) I can just take enemies to make sure every single game session we get mobbed by cultists or something so I get to regularly scratch that itch.

I'm not stupid enough to try to wrestle a fire elemental.

...though...if I could...it would be totally epic :)

Devote yourself to a god of wrestling and maybe get some Defensive Imbuements or DR only while grappling for that :)
I would go with a good Judo skill and better Wrestling skill (even higher with Technical Grappling so you get a better Trained ST bonus) and knife for backup. Thrown Weapon (Knife) for ranged.
Maybe Leather armor for protection.
Good ST, Ground Guard, Terrain Adaptation (Mud or loose), Extra Lifting ST, Evade (for getting to a guy in the back or escaping into a crowd), Stealth and extra Striking ST for backstabs.
Extra Attack, especially with TG is great.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Ah, sentry removal.

I'm...not sure how well that's documented. There might be something useful in Martial Arts: Fairburn Close Combat System. The real challenge there is less the grab (grabbing someone by surprise is laughably easy) or the kill (cutting a throat of someone in that position may not be easy but it's not that hard) but rather making sure they don't make any noise. No shouting, screaming, gurgling, dropping things, discharging weapons...

I've dug into this a bit, looking at MA:FCCS (but purely in terms of the rules, I have no real-world experience). It isn't easy. The best way to do it seems to go:

Arrive behind your target completely undetected, and with no other enemies around. All-Out Attack (Double). The first attack is a grapple to the face at grappling skill -3 (hit location penalties are halved for grapples) to hold the target's mouth closed; the second is a thrust to the vitals at Knife-3 for 3x damage.

An alternative is a thrust to neck veins/arteries: that is much harder, at -8, and does 2.5x damage, but seems to have been taught by Fairbairn. You might try talking your GM into letting you use a swing for this, or using "Grab and Smash" (Martial Arts p118) to boost damage, but using both seems a bit implausible.

The vitals attack seems easier. You want to be sure to do a Major Wound, which to the vitals imposes a knockdown roll (vs. HT) at -5. Since people with ST 13 are annoyingly common, that means you need to do at least 3HP basic damage, so you want 1d+2 if you can get it, certainly 1d+1. A Large or Long Knife both do thr imp, so ST 13 and a Very Fine knife meets the requirement.