Quick Question: Two Allies in a Hex?

Stripe · 07-20-2014, 12:07 AM

Quick question. Seeking RAW and a page number, please.

Can two allies stand in the same hex to attack a foe?

If so, how many can stand in the same hex?

Are there penalties or other considerations?

Thanks!

MatthewVilter · 07-20-2014, 12:33 AM

Normally in combat each ally needs their own hex (p. B384). Four could fix but could not be fighting.

I expected to find more in Martial Arts but that is all I found.

Stripe · 07-20-2014, 02:56 PM

B368: "A human-sized fighter needs about one yard (3’) of space; thus, two warriors could move down a passage two yards wide shoulder-to-shoulder – or hold it against a foe. A doorway is about one yard wide, so a single person could hold it. All this assumes room to attack and defend. Noncombatants could be packed in much more tightly, but they would have no room to react."

B368: "You can always move through space occupied by your allies in combat . . ."

B384: "Each human-sized or smaller fighter must occupy one hex. Exceptions include close combat, swarms, and situations in which people are crowded together but not fighting (you could cram up to four ordinary-sized humans into a single hex, if they were friendly)."

B385: "You can also move through an ally’s hex, although the movement cost is higher."

B387: "Minor obstruction in hex (e.g., an ally, or a body on the ground): +1 movement point per obstruction.

B388: "You can attack 'through' someone else in melee if you are using a weapon with a reach of two yards or more. You may attack through a friend at no penalty."

Before quoting Close Combat rules, note that the multiple allies wishing to stand in the same hex are not engaged in close combat with the enemy. Close combat is defined as (B391): "'Close combat' is any situation in
which you occupy the same hex as your foe or try to move through his hex." So, the allies are not in close combat. Regardless, the question isn't how many combatants can engage in close combat in a single hex. The question is—rules-as-written and canonically speaking—how many allies can stand in the same hex and fight an enemy in another hex?

I'm only seeking written rules and page references. The question arose during game play last night and we made a rules decision without certainty of RAW. So, I need no speculation. If there are rules for multiple allies in a single hex fighting an enemy in a different hex, I'd like to know them.

B392: "Any number of people may participate in close combat in the same hex."

B392: "Remember that when a hex is cut by a straight wall, etc., a partial hex counts as a full hex."

B492: "Treat any partial hex as equal to a full hex."

If I were forced to strictly interpret the rules I can find in the Basic Set rather than make a decision based on what I perceive as logical, I'd say according to the rules, any number of allies (up to four human-sized ones) can stand in the same hex and attack and defend against a foe in another hex with no penalty.

But, then I really dissect the rules on 384 and I'm not so sure.

Each human-sized or smaller fighter must occupy one hex. Exceptions include:

1. Close combat. The allies are not in close combat.

2. Swarms. The allies are not swarms.

3. Situations in which people are crowded together but not fighting. The allies are fighting.

That makes me think it is RAW that allies cannot ever under any circumstances stand in the same hex to fight. They can move through an ally's hex, but not remain stationary in the hex. We have a number of rules for moving through an ally's hex but none for occupying it during combat.

However, then I think, "Each human-sized or smaller fighter must occupy one hex"—that doesn't say "one full-sized empty hex" or "one hex not occupied by another combatant."

So, I think it's RAW that any number of allies (up to four human-sized ones) can occupy the same hex and attack and defend against a foe in another hex at no penalty.

I'd think this would be a common question.

Captain Joy · 07-20-2014, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stripe

But, then I really dissect the rules on 384 and I'm not so sure.

Each human-sized or smaller fighter must occupy one hex. Exceptions include:

1. Close combat. The allies are not in close combat.

2. Swarms. The allies are not swarms.

3. Situations in which people are crowded together but not fighting. The allies are fighting.

That makes me think it is RAW that allies cannot ever under any circumstances stand in the same hex to fight. They can move through an ally's hex, but not remain stationary in the hex. We have a number of rules for moving through an ally's hex but none for occupying it during combat.

However, then I think, "Each human-sized or smaller fighter must occupy one hex"—that doesn't say "one full-sized empty hex" or "one hex not occupied by another combatant."

So, I think it's RAW that any number of allies (up to four human-sized ones) can occupy the same hex and attack and defend against a foe in another hex at no penalty.

Excellent quote dump; it helped a lot.

Based on that, I'd go with your first impulse: four people in the same hex can either be engaged in close combat with each other, or not engaged in combat at all (while they're in that hex together).

While "doesn't say 'one full-sized empty hex' or 'one hex not occupied by another combatant.'" is true, the next sentence clearly, IMHO, indicates such is the intent.

Captain Joy · 07-20-2014, 03:56 PM

B392: "A good compromise is to allow a fighter to declare himself in close combat with an opponent while still in an adjacent hex."

The above compromise was given to deal with the difficulty of using 3D figures on a hex grid. One might claim that by RAW, this allows 4 characters in one hex to engage in close combat with opponent(s) in an adjacent hex.

Stripe · 07-20-2014, 06:54 PM

Thanks, all, for your replies.

Verjigorm · 07-20-2014, 07:47 PM

Realistically, there's no reason why you couldn't fit four people into a hex while fighting: Greek Hoplite phalanxes were ordered with men .5 meters apart on all sides when in "locked shields".

MatthewVilter · 07-21-2014, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Realistically, there's no reason why you couldn't fit four people into a hex while fighting: Greek Hoplite phalanxes were ordered with men .5 meters apart on all sides when in "locked shields".

I suspect that that is a very special case. If you asked any of those hoplites to, for example, do what GURPS calls a dodge I expect that they would look at you funny.

vierasmarius · 07-21-2014, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter

I suspect that that is a very special case. If you asked any of those hoplites to, for example, do what GURPS calls a dodge I expect that they would look at you funny.

This definitely seems like a special case, made possible by the soldiers possessing the Teamwork and/or Shield-Wall Training perks. Without that I'd have them all take penalties to DX-based rolls for being so tightly packed; -2 to -4 seems appropriate.

GodBeastX · 07-21-2014, 03:51 PM

I'm going to say this about the question.

Kromm mentioned in a post that two people in Close Combat are assumed to be struggling for position and space, hence all the penalties and stuff associated with close combat.

If two allies are trying to use a hex to double up on someone, I'd personally allow it, based on this reasoning, and give them a bunch of negative modifiers for struggling with each other to get room for combat as if they were enemies with each other.

This would include attacking through an ally, bulk penalties, and anything else that may apply.

07-20-2014, 12:07 AM	#1
Stripe Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midwest, USA	Quick Question: Two Allies in a Hex? Quick question. Seeking RAW and a page number, please. Can two allies stand in the same hex to attack a foe? If so, how many can stand in the same hex? Are there penalties or other considerations? Thanks! __________________ . "How the heck am I supposed to justify that whatever I feel like doing at any particular moment is 'in character' if I can't say 'I'm chaotic evil!'"? —Jeff Freeman

07-20-2014, 12:33 AM	#2
MatthewVilter Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Los Angeles County	Re: Quick Question: Two Allies in a Hex? Normally in combat each ally needs their own hex (p. B384). Four could fix but could not be fighting. I expected to find more in Martial Arts but that is all I found. __________________ Use Steam? Check out the GURPS Fan Club! Melissa - Lost in Dreams - World jumping engineering student. Greg - Day 1 - SFX expert, single father, and zombie outbreak survivor.

07-20-2014, 02:56 PM	#3
Stripe Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midwest, USA	Re: Quick Question: Two Allies in a Hex? B368: "A human-sized fighter needs about one yard (3’) of space; thus, two warriors could move down a passage two yards wide shoulder-to-shoulder – or hold it against a foe. A doorway is about one yard wide, so a single person could hold it. All this assumes room to attack and defend. Noncombatants could be packed in much more tightly, but they would have no room to react." B368: "You can always move through space occupied by your allies in combat . . ." B384: "Each human-sized or smaller fighter must occupy one hex. Exceptions include close combat, swarms, and situations in which people are crowded together but not fighting (you could cram up to four ordinary-sized humans into a single hex, if they were friendly)." B385: "You can also move through an ally’s hex, although the movement cost is higher." B387: "Minor obstruction in hex (e.g., an ally, or a body on the ground): +1 movement point per obstruction. B388: "You can attack 'through' someone else in melee if you are using a weapon with a reach of two yards or more. You may attack through a friend at no penalty." Before quoting Close Combat rules, note that the multiple allies wishing to stand in the same hex are not engaged in close combat with the enemy. Close combat is defined as (B391): "'Close combat' is any situation in which you occupy the same hex as your foe or try to move through his hex." So, the allies are not in close combat. Regardless, the question isn't how many combatants can engage in close combat in a single hex. The question is—rules-as-written and canonically speaking—how many allies can stand in the same hex and fight an enemy in another hex? I'm only seeking written rules and page references. The question arose during game play last night and we made a rules decision without certainty of RAW. So, I need no speculation. If there are rules for multiple allies in a single hex fighting an enemy in a different hex, I'd like to know them. B392: "Any number of people may participate in close combat in the same hex." B392: "Remember that when a hex is cut by a straight wall, etc., a partial hex counts as a full hex." B492: "Treat any partial hex as equal to a full hex." If I were forced to strictly interpret the rules I can find in the Basic Set rather than make a decision based on what I perceive as logical, I'd say according to the rules, any number of allies (up to four human-sized ones) can stand in the same hex and attack and defend against a foe in another hex with no penalty. But, then I really dissect the rules on 384 and I'm not so sure. Each human-sized or smaller fighter must occupy one hex. Exceptions include: 1. Close combat. The allies are not in close combat. 2. Swarms. The allies are not swarms. 3. Situations in which people are crowded together but not fighting. The allies are fighting. That makes me think it is RAW that allies cannot ever under any circumstances stand in the same hex to fight. They can move through an ally's hex, but not remain stationary in the hex. We have a number of rules for moving through an ally's hex but none for occupying it during combat. However, then I think, "Each human-sized or smaller fighter must occupy one hex"—that doesn't say "one full-sized empty hex" or "one hex not occupied by another combatant." So, I think it's RAW that any number of allies (up to four human-sized ones) can occupy the same hex and attack and defend against a foe in another hex at no penalty. I'd think this would be a common question. __________________ . "How the heck am I supposed to justify that whatever I feel like doing at any particular moment is 'in character' if I can't say 'I'm chaotic evil!'"? —Jeff Freeman

07-20-2014, 03:56 PM	#5
Captain Joy Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Heartland, U.S.A.	Re: Quick Question: Two Allies in a Hex? B392: "A good compromise is to allow a fighter to declare himself in close combat with an opponent while still in an adjacent hex." The above compromise was given to deal with the difficulty of using 3D figures on a hex grid. One might claim that by RAW, this allows 4 characters in one hex to engage in close combat with opponent(s) in an adjacent hex. __________________ my GURPS: Star Trek (TOS era) campaign Robin Laws roleplayer-type quiz Last edited by Captain Joy; 07-20-2014 at 04:01 PM.

07-20-2014, 06:54 PM	#6
Stripe Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midwest, USA	Re: Quick Question: Two Allies in a Hex? Thanks, all, for your replies. __________________ . "How the heck am I supposed to justify that whatever I feel like doing at any particular moment is 'in character' if I can't say 'I'm chaotic evil!'"? —Jeff Freeman

07-20-2014, 07:47 PM	#7
Verjigorm Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?	Re: Quick Question: Two Allies in a Hex? Realistically, there's no reason why you couldn't fit four people into a hex while fighting: Greek Hoplite phalanxes were ordered with men .5 meters apart on all sides when in "locked shields". __________________ Hydration is key

07-21-2014, 03:51 PM	#10
GodBeastX Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Behind You	Re: Quick Question: Two Allies in a Hex? I'm going to say this about the question. Kromm mentioned in a post that two people in Close Combat are assumed to be struggling for position and space, hence all the penalties and stuff associated with close combat. If two allies are trying to use a hex to double up on someone, I'd personally allow it, based on this reasoning, and give them a bunch of negative modifiers for struggling with each other to get room for combat as if they were enemies with each other. This would include attacking through an ally, bulk penalties, and anything else that may apply.