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Old 04-08-2019, 11:19 AM   #11
juris
 
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

Sounds good thanks for the comments everyone :)

Question:

What exactly are the miniature packs?

How do miniature packs fit with vehicle design rules?

Does this mean that each vehicle will be unique (thus requiring the miniature pack) but also have limited 'modibility' (vehicle design rules)?
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Old 04-08-2019, 01:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
Sounds good thanks for the comments everyone :)

Question:

What exactly are the miniature packs?

How do miniature packs fit with vehicle design rules?

Does this mean that each vehicle will be unique (thus requiring the miniature pack) but also have limited 'modibility' (vehicle design rules)?
Every miniature pack includes new design cards; you can either use the recipe card included to make that mini . . . or go crazy and build new cars using gear from whichever sets you own.
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Old 04-08-2019, 02:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

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Originally Posted by DarkPumpkin View Post
Seems like 6e will be a nice "complementary" game along with Classic...I can't see it as a replacement, but I'll certainly give it a fair shot.
Glad to hear you'll give it a chance...the biggest obstacle CW6 faces is the potential for guys to dig their heels in and not give it a far shake on grounds of "newer is always worse" or "Yeah, we heard this before with CW5".

I'll continue to support CWC in my convention rotation because there are a couple old-school diehards who seek me out year in and year out...but when it comes to personal opinion, it's CW6 that will be on my table at home (and at my FLGS) with CWC coming out for special occasions, not the other way around. Getting to play it for myself and realizing that 2 days later I'm still excited for it has sold me on the idea that they're really onto something here, and I'm curious to see what improvements get made before launch.

I almost never get to play CWC anyway because my friends and family have neither the time nor the patience for it, and the typical attendee at my regular conventions walk up with starry eyes, ask 'Oooh, what's that?', see the charts/tables/record sheets/etc, go 'Eww, nevermind', and walk away.

Caveat: given my experience with ClickyTech, I'd be furious if CW6 hits stores and CWC was pulled from distribution the next day, doubly so if it comes with an attitude of "What CWC? CW6 is, has always been, and will always be Car Wars"...but I'd like to believe Phil is smart enough to know how bad of an idea that is. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
Sounds good thanks for the comments everyone :)

Question:

What exactly are the miniature packs?

How do miniature packs fit with vehicle design rules?

Does this mean that each vehicle will be unique (thus requiring the miniature pack) but also have limited 'modibility' (vehicle design rules)?
Phil beat me to it with the packs, and way more succinctly than the 3-ish paragraphs I had here.

On the subject of Vehicle Design: It's a simple affair, but that doesn't mean it's shallow...just that you no longer need to do algebra / rely on third-party aids like the Combat Garage. For a Division X game, you get X points to spend on Car Parts cards...guns, equipment, upgrades, etc. There are also Crew cards with a separate 'Crew Point' pool, but I didn't think to ask Randy/Jimmy about how that (or armor points) work outside the controlled circumstances we were in.

We weren't allowed to build cars at Fnordcon unless the whole table already had one game under its belt, but even with that I can confidently say the biggest problem you'll run into is indecision.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

You know, I've been very interested in this since I first heard about it (I have the "I made Steve Jackson work on Car Wars" shirt from the Ogre Kickstarter.

I played the original version when it came out - we played it a lot, actually - but man, it got into Star Fleet Battles levels of complexity and time consumption (and I play, and enjoy, Advanced Squad Leader.)

From these comments, and some of the things I've seen elsewhere, I have to quote Freddie Mercury: "I want it all, I want it all, and I want it NOW!"

I look forward to giving SJG money when the Kickstarter launches!
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Old 04-08-2019, 11:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

The hardest thing about previewing Car Wars 6e at FnordCon was that I couldn't go home with a rule book.

Not that it would have been very thick, but there were rules that we missed in the quick briefing that I kept wondering about. I played toward the end of the con, and staff was a bit spread thin.

In my short experience, three things stood out:

1. The elegant props and mechanics fully integrate and relate the changing aspects of your vehicle's status and control.

2. Get used to persisting with a vehicle that degrades in ability.

3. It was difficult for me to get my vehicle front weapons pointed at my foes as we circled and our control degraded.

One mechanic that had a prominent impact was that as your tires take damage (from attacks and skids) your handling and top speed become more impaired.

Oh yeah, another dilemma, do you use up precious control (handling) to put out fires, or take the imminent damage to steer your vehicle into better position.

There's an interesting element of resource management as you drive offensively!

Last edited by Tom H.; 04-08-2019 at 11:35 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 04-09-2019, 12:34 AM   #16
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

No offense to the grognards (especially since I'm one of them), but the new rules are much more suited to my current play style than Classic.

I used to play Star Fleet Battles too, but would not enjoy it as much today.
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Old 04-09-2019, 03:55 AM   #17
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
Caveat: given my experience with ClickyTech, I'd be furious if CW6 hits stores and CWC was pulled from distribution the next day, doubly so if it comes with an attitude of "What CWC? CW6 is, has always been, and will always be Car Wars"...but I'd like to believe Phil is smart enough to know how bad of an idea that is. :)
1. That's an unrealistic and unreasonable expectation. If the classic game sells well enough to justify reprints, we'll do what we can. Expecting us to keep items in print that do not sell well enough to cover the expense is an expectation that we cannot meet.

2. For those who want old school Car Wars games and expansions, the Pocket Box preorder page is live and the best chance to stock up on long out-of-print games and expansions. https://bit.ly/2WTxyli
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Old 04-09-2019, 04:10 AM   #18
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
Caveat: given my experience with ClickyTech, I'd be furious if CW6 hits stores and CWC was pulled from distribution the next day, doubly so if it comes with an attitude of "What CWC? CW6 is, has always been, and will always be Car Wars"...but I'd like to believe Phil is smart enough to know how bad of an idea that is. :)
That was never the attitude of the companies behind BattleTech and MWDA. I know it's the common perception, but classic BattleTech only had about six months between the last FASA book and the first FanPro products. (FanPro actually had books in stores before MWDA hit shelves!) Indeed, MechWarrior: Dark Age served as the gateway to the older system for a great number of people, bringing new blood to the classic game.

For SJ Games, the matter is perhaps simpler. Unlike the dog's breakfast that is BattleTech's IP rights, all things Car Wars reside with one company. If a game sells well, it will continue to be supported. If it fails to garner attention and market share, it will - regretfully - be discontinued. It would be awesome if people so love CW6 that they buy up copies of the classic version; as we see with GURPS, Dungeon Fantasy, and The Fantasy Trip, SJ Games is not afraid to support multiple games in the same genre (or even system) at once.

Edit: It took me a while to formulate this post. I see Phil beat me to it.
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Old 04-09-2019, 08:34 AM   #19
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

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Originally Posted by philreed View Post
1. That's an unrealistic and unreasonable expectation. If the classic game sells well enough to justify reprints, we'll do what we can. Expecting us to keep items in print that do not sell well enough to cover the expense is an expectation that we cannot meet.
It sounds like we're on the cusp of another "We're on the same page but in different paragraphs, leaving just enough wiggle room for a frustrating disconnect" moment...would rather nip that in the bud if I can, I still feel bad about last time re: the contents of the starter set. 'You must do print runs even if the sales aren't there' isn't what I was getting at...that is, as you said, unrealistic and unreasonable, and I know better than to try and do that to you.

What I was trying to say was a more tongue-in-cheek version of "I sincerely doubt you'd do such a thing, but please don't openly forsake those who don't make the jump; that way lies a bunch of outrage that benefits nobody".

Not reprinting if the sales aren't there to justify one is one thing, doing things like pulling the PDFs off W23 for no reason beyond 'these are for the old edition' is another. Given how hard SJG is working to get the GURPS archives into PDF and PoD I don't think that'll even be considered let alone acted on, but felt it worth noting as something that'd get under my skin.

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
That was never the attitude of the companies behind BattleTech and MWDA. I know it's the common perception, but classic BattleTech only had about six months between the last FASA book and the first FanPro products. (FanPro actually had books in stores before MWDA hit shelves!) Indeed, MechWarrior: Dark Age served as the gateway to the older system for a great number of people, bringing new blood to the classic game.

For SJ Games, the matter is perhaps simpler. Unlike the dog's breakfast that is BattleTech's IP rights, all things Car Wars reside with one company. If a game sells well, it will continue to be supported. If it fails to garner attention and market share, it will - regretfully - be discontinued. It would be awesome if people so love CW6 that they buy up copies of the classic version; as we see with GURPS, Dungeon Fantasy, and The Fantasy Trip, SJ Games is not afraid to support multiple games in the same genre (or even system) at once.

Edit: It took me a while to formulate this post. I see Phil beat me to it.
I'm not proud of being able to say this...no, that doesn't go far enough, I'm ashamed...but I do distinctly remember fiery outrage in response to a statement along those lines, because I took part in such outrage. Now I'm pushing 40 instead of pushing 21, and thinking 'Man, I was a dumb (fnord) back then, wasn't I...'...but it's one of those things that remains forever seared into a brain cell or three.

By having that 'inside looking out' perspective, you make a good point...it's not a good idea to consider the rat's nest that is BT production a monoculture. Thinking about it, dwelling on the situation and what I've learned in the decade and a half since...I know, without hesitation, that Jordan wouldn't do that to us. From the rare times I've been able to chat with him, he's one of the rare people I'd put on par with Steve when it comes to "genuinely good dude". I'm also confident in the passion of...crud, what was his name. One of the few who still has a MWDA bible, I spent about 3 days trading messages with him on Reddit.

If I had to guess, that statement would have come from Topps...Catalyst made it sound like getting the Shadowrun license was an exercise in pulling teeth Really dwelling on it, as well as dinner conversation with SJG's Eric saturday, I'm left wondering if it was an 'inside looking out' vs 'outside looking in' issue where they couldn't legally acknowledge it while hammering out the licensing specifics.

Never would have guessed that an intended-to-be-cheeky "I remember this outrage, please don't repeat those mistakes" would lead to this much introspection. Thanks, Roland...I'm glad you couldn't bring yourself to stay away.
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Old 04-09-2019, 11:17 AM   #20
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Default Re: FnordCon Update

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Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
I'm not proud of being able to say this...no, that doesn't go far enough, I'm ashamed...but I do distinctly remember fiery outrage in response to a statement along those lines, because I took part in such outrage. Now I'm pushing 40 instead of pushing 21, and thinking 'Man, I was a dumb (fnord) back then, wasn't I...'...but it's one of those things that remains forever seared into a brain cell or three.

If I had to guess, that statement would have come from Topps...
I edited this down a bit to these two statements, since I think they're most-relevant to what I'm trying to say here.

I also remember feeling outraged circa 2000. In fact, it was a personal message from Paul Sjardin - a longtime behind-the-scenes contributor to BattleTech - that snapped me out of it. This, eventually, led to me joining the tabletop development team about a decade later. But not everyone can have the benefit of such direct contact. One of the things I love about SJ Games is that the company's officers and authors are fully willing to get out there and give their side of the story, unvarnished and honest. If CWC's sales don't warrant further reprints (or, fingers crossed, new material), then Phil, Andrew, or even SJ will tell us so, likely with an apology.

Back to BT, I don't think Topps - at the time, actually Wizkids - ever made the direct statement that MWDA was a replacement for BattleTech. I believe the outrage stemmed from awkward early marketing. MechWarrior: Dark Age was originally named BattleTech: Phoenix Rising and billed as the future of the franchise; this ruffled not a few feathers. Then, because collectible miniatures games were the New Hotness, MWDA could be found at a lot of places that never carried BattleTech in the first place, leading to frustration both among fans and sellers. Add in your usual internet echo chambers, and you've got a misconception that's lasted almost two decades.

SJ Games has, I believe, done what they can to avoid the same problems with Car Wars. It's now on us, the old-school players, to act as "brand ambassadors." If we see people getting worked up over the new design, then we can pour water on the flames. Remind folks that Car Wars simply ran out of steam back in the 90s, and yet SJ Games kept the core game in print for years and years. They've even reprinted a huge number of the most-iconic games and supplements. If they bring up MWDA, show how the new game is different: no hidden stats, no randomized boosters, gameplay that tries to capture the essence of car vs. car combat while hiding a lot of the math.

Anyway, I think that's far more than my two cents. If you couldn't guess, I am a wee bit passionate about the topic.
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