A wine-dark void (campaign idea)

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Are you aware of Matt Rigsby's Fantasy Tech? There are multiple items fitting your interests. Specifically including Archimedian heat rays and I think Wings of Daedulus too.

You know, I think that might have been one of those PDFs that I bought because it sounded cool, I read it once a long time ago, and then I forgot about it. I'll have to look around in my digital library and see if I can find it.

Luke

[dcarson]

Steal liftwood from Space 1889. You can use the floating seeds to prepare a alchemical treatment that makes wood repel gravity. So you have wooden vanes you rotate to alter the amount of lift your trireme has.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Are you aware of Matt Rigsby's Fantasy Tech? There are multiple items fitting your interests. Specifically including Archimedian heat rays and I think Wings of Daedulus too.

Right you are. The heat rays have rather abysmal range (50/70, meaning they are outranged by slings), but that's because they were meant to be plausible - giving them ranges comparable (or indeed superior) to arrows is probably a good idea. Interestingly, using the slightly-more-primitive variants, battles in the morning would see vessels in the west holding an advantage, while battles in the evening would see vessels in the east holding an advantage (for battles at midday, vessels in the north hold an advantage).

The wings potentially represent a world-building challenge if they're common - due to the setting necessarily causing awesome thermals rising from the void, it's rather easy (and quick) to glide from island to island. Such travelers can't carry much with them, but the speed would likely beat a skyreme*, making this extremely useful for messengers and the like. If this is problematic, one option is to have there be an FP cost just for gliding (which honestly, I think makes sense, as you need to keep your arms spread and level), albeit certainly not at the same rate as active flight. Another is to say that thermals sufficient to lift a human are a bit warmer than is safe for the wings, and prolonged gliding runs the risk of running into the same softened-wax problem as Icarus. It takes an exceptional individual to use active flight (or perhaps alternating active flight with gliding without making use of thermals) to cross between the islands, but short-ranged flights to board enemy vessels or the like are more doable (albeit by no means easy, and flight while fully armed and armored requires rather impressive ST).

*Sky trireme. Eh, ehhh?

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Varyon

skyreme

Niiice!

As for gliding, I imagine holding an iron cross posture could be quite tiring for a person, so 1 Fatigue per ten minutes or something could definitely work. This would give the wings maneuverability and speed to the skyreme's range and hitting power. Kind of like fighters versus ships, except that in this case the fighter has to choose between using its weapon and actually flying. I wouldn't have thermals at continent-level melt the wings, but if you go too deep the air gets very hot and the wings will all melt. This could add tactical choices, where an airship could try to avoid boarding by going deep, risking heat exhaustion of the crew but preventing pursuers from directly attacking them (although if there are no cloud layers between them and the pursuers, they could still be followed. And I suppose the pursuing ship could still drop heavy things on them).

For heat rays, I was thinking a range of maybe 100/200. Or perhaps make them a cone with width 2 and range 200, and add dissipation (so full damage out to range 100, then half damage between range 101 and 200). So you can begin burning once you get into arrow range.

At the moment I'm conflicted about whether I want to use restricted fields of fire based on the sun's position. It would make maneuver important (good) but skyreme battles rather one sided (bad) based on who was in the advantageous position.

Luke

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

At the moment I'm conflicted about whether I want to use restricted fields of fire based on the sun's position.

"We must take the light gage, Mr Aristides!"

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by dcarson

Steal liftwood from Space 1889. You can use the floating seeds to prepare a alchemical treatment that makes wood repel gravity. So you have wooden vanes you rotate to alter the amount of lift your trireme has.

And then if you angle them, you can reflect the gravity, giving thrust. We now have the equivalent of sails for our skyremes, for long distance travel (actual sails won't work, of course, because motion will already be relative to the wind so you would just drift without the sails doing anything. No tacking or maneuver or any real benefit from a wind sail). We'll stick with men cranking the propellers for tactical movement.

Luke

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Niiice!

I thought so too, so long as your players don't accidentally conflate skyreme and Skyrim, you should be good (although jokes about commanding the crew with Shouts would be perfectly acceptable).

Originally Posted by lwcamp

As for gliding, I imagine holding an iron cross posture could be quite tiring for a person, so 1 Fatigue per ten minutes or something could definitely work.

That's kind of what I was thinking. The wings in the book give Air Move equal to 2xBasic Move and cost 1 FP per minute for full flight, nothing to glide (indeed, the mention that alternating active flight and gliding allowing for indefinite flight implies gliding could even count as resting); I feel gliding should be at half speed (just as is the case for the Gliding variants of Flight), and 1 FP per 10 minutes probably works well (many heroes will only suffer 1 FP every 20 minutes, thanks to Very Fit). I feel that could probably work; assuming they can manage the entire trip gliding but stop once they reach 30% FP, the maximum range for a character with FP 10 and Move 5 is 21,000 yards, or about 12 miles (in 70 minutes, after which the character will have to rest for an equal amount of time). I think that's enough to get between each island and its immediate neighbors in most cases, but not enough to replace skyremes for longer voyages (or any that you want to bring much with you; 8xBL is a pretty harsh limit, considering you have to support your own body weight in that budget). And, of course, the more the character would have to actively fly, the shorter the possible range (the same character having to fly all the way would only reach 4,200 yards, or about 2.4 miles, in 7 minutes, having to rest for 70 minutes afterwards). A hero can go further - someone with Move 7, FP 16, and Very Fit could manage 92,400 yards, or about 52.5 miles, in one go (it would take 220 minutes - 3 hours, 40 minutes - and the character would have to rest for around 55 minutes before making the return trip). While I don't think it's noted in the book, the wings should probably have a minimum speed of 1/4th flight speed (Move 2.5 for a character with Basic Move 5), as per Cannot Hover, maybe being able to hover by burning 1 FP per second.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

I wouldn't have thermals at continent-level melt the wings, but if you go too deep the air gets very hot and the wings will all melt.

My thoughts were that lifting a human with thermals might require the character to glide below what would have been sea level, to where the air is warmer - not necessarily warm enough to cause problems for the character, but enough to soften the wax over time. Even then, the character could probably glide for quite some time, but the wings would risk falling apart once he goes back to active flight to get back up to "sea" level (due to the stress of flapping). Of course, such a time limit isn't necessary if you go with "gliding is tiring," as that gives you a time limit on its own.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

At the moment I'm conflicted about whether I want to use restricted fields of fire based on the sun's position. It would make maneuver important (good) but skyreme battles rather one sided (bad) based on who was in the advantageous position.

A lot will depend on how powerful the heat rays are. If they take several minutes to destroy an enemy vessel, they serve more to give the disadvantaged ships a time limit to take out their crews/ships or maneuver into a position where the mirrors cannot be used against them (possibly even get to a position where they can use their own mirrors). The advantaged ship uses a combination of heat rays, arrows, and even ramming/boarding once things get close enough; meanwhile the disadvantaged ship similarly uses arrows and ramming/boarding, with shieldbearers attempting to stay in the heat ray's area of effect, deflecting what they can to keep the ship from catching flame (they and others may also be carrying around buckets of water to douse anything that starts smoldering).

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Varyon

That's kind of what I was thinking. The wings in the book give Air Move equal to 2xBasic Move and cost 1 FP per minute for full flight, nothing to glide (indeed, the mention that alternating active flight and gliding allowing for indefinite flight implies gliding could even count as resting); I feel gliding should be at half speed (just as is the case for the Gliding variants of Flight), and 1 FP per 10 minutes probably works well (many heroes will only suffer 1 FP every 20 minutes, thanks to Very Fit). I feel that could probably work; assuming they can manage the entire trip gliding but stop once they reach 30% FP, the maximum range for a character with FP 10 and Move 5 is 21,000 yards, or about 12 miles (in 70 minutes, after which the character will have to rest for an equal amount of time). I think that's enough to get between each island and its immediate neighbors in most cases, but not enough to replace skyremes for longer voyages (or any that you want to bring much with you; 8xBL is a pretty harsh limit, considering you have to support your own body weight in that budget). And, of course, the more the character would have to actively fly, the shorter the possible range (the same character having to fly all the way would only reach 4,200 yards, or about 2.4 miles, in 7 minutes, having to rest for 70 minutes afterwards). A hero can go further - someone with Move 7, FP 16, and Very Fit could manage 92,400 yards, or about 52.5 miles, in one go (it would take 220 minutes - 3 hours, 40 minutes - and the character would have to rest for around 55 minutes before making the return trip). While I don't think it's noted in the book, the wings should probably have a minimum speed of 1/4th flight speed (Move 2.5 for a character with Basic Move 5), as per Cannot Hover, maybe being able to hover by burning 1 FP per second.

A quick look at Google maps indicates that the hero could reach just about anywhere in the Aegean by island hopping, as well as Crete by way of either Peloponnese or Anatolia. For normal people, Crete would be off limits, as would some of the Aegean islands like Astipalea. But I'm okay with fliers being messengers and scouts. The sky-racing equivalent of the marathon might be the Astipalea (a race to fly the 25 mile distances between Amorgos and Astipalea). We can just ignore for now that the Aegean can be rather shallow and there might well be mounds and hills that would be accessible in a dried-out Mediterranean world that are below the waves now. Also ignore that Amorgos to Ofidoussa is 22 miles, and Ofidoussa to Pontikoussa to Astipalea is achievable by a series of short hops. But if you want to get to Egypt or Cyrene or Carthage, take an airship.

So, yeah, fly at up to 2 x Move 1 FP/min, glide at Move for 1 FP/10 min, and fly at less than 1/4 Move (including hovering) for 1 FP/turn. That should work. I'm not entirely sure why a high HT (giving high Move) should make you glide faster, but we can ignore that as part of the inherent silliness of the game.

Originally Posted by Varyon

A lot will depend on how powerful the heat rays are. If they take several minutes to destroy an enemy vessel, they serve more to give the disadvantaged ships a time limit to take out their crews/ships or maneuver into a position where the mirrors cannot be used against them (possibly even get to a position where they can use their own mirrors). The advantaged ship uses a combination of heat rays, arrows, and even ramming/boarding once things get close enough; meanwhile the disadvantaged ship similarly uses arrows and ramming/boarding, with shieldbearers attempting to stay in the heat ray's area of effect, deflecting what they can to keep the ship from catching flame (they and others may also be carrying around buckets of water to douse anything that starts smoldering).

Historical triremes seem to have maxed out at 50 tons. So take a 40 ton skyreme, it would have about 170 HP (assuming it is unliving and not homogeneous). A heat ray causing 1d-2 damage would deal an average of (4+3+2+1+0+0)/6 = 1.67 damage per turn. So the skyreme could withstand being directly in the heat ray for about 100 turns before risking being incapacitated. Given a reasonable Move, this would allow them to cross the 200 yard range at which heat rays are effective and end up still scorched but serviceable. Of course, the enemy skyreme might be running away so that they can keep burning for longer. Add some puffy cumulus clouds to provide terrain (get in the shadow of one of those and your heat ray stops working) and you could have a tactically interesting fight.

Luke

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Historical triremes seem to have maxed out at 50 tons. So take a 40 ton skyreme, it would have about 170 HP (assuming it is unliving and not homogeneous). A heat ray causing 1d-2 damage would deal an average of (4+3+2+1+0+0)/6 = 1.67 damage per turn. So the skyreme could withstand being directly in the heat ray for about 100 turns before risking being incapacitated. Given a reasonable Move, this would allow them to cross the 200 yard range at which heat rays are effective and end up still scorched but serviceable. Of course, the enemy skyreme might be running away so that they can keep burning for longer. Add some puffy cumulus clouds to provide terrain (get in the shadow of one of those and your heat ray stops working) and you could have a tactically interesting fight.

The trireme in LTC2 looks like it's about as heavy as they get, then (57 tons empty, 77.7 fully loaded), and has 194* HP and Move 1/5 with oars (as would be used in combat). Assuming comparable performance with an equivalent skyreme, it can close a 200 yard distance in only 40 seconds at full speed. There is the issue that the enemy may be able to keep its distance, but there are solutions to that, even in a featureless void (the airship equivalent of the featureless plain). In addition to the fact 200 yards is within bow range, meaning the heat ray crew may be dealing with arrows, it may be interesting to require the heat rays to be mounted on the sides of the ship (rather than the front and back, possibly due to needing more space than the latter would provide) and not allow them to rotate enough to actually face straight ahead/straight back (perhaps give them a 60-degree arc). This requires the vessel to expose its side, at least to some extent, to use the weapon, making it unable to flee directly, and thus allowing the pursuing skyreme to catch up. Smaller heat rays, perhaps dealing 1d-4 burn (averaging 0.5 damage), might be in use on the front and back of the vessel (and likely used more for signaling than combat).

Of course, the LTC2 trireme also has DR 3, which will prevent anything less than maximum damage from your 1d-2 burn heat rays. Simply letting the heat rays ignore wooden armor (because wood burns, naturally) might not be a horrible idea (I'd suggest boosting the heat rays to 1d+1 burn, but I think that would make them too effective against crew - or infantry in an assault on a city).

*This is consistent with being Unliving. Note that, if you were to opt to design your vessels with Spaceships, that system uses a value right between Unliving and Homogenous (a multiplier of 6).

[AlexanderHowl]

I would honestly make it out of etherwood from Spaceships 7.