Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

[Apache]

Originally Posted by AngusKhan

Maybe Infantry should not have any of the penalties associated with the ninja, since they might be more accustomed to "using iron sights" rather than a targeting system like a tank or similar vehicle...?

I always figured manned units shot at Ogres using The Mark One Eyeball or self-guided munitions, since painting an Ogre with a laser seems to be an exotic form of suicide.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by AngusKhan

Maybe Infantry should not have any of the penalties associated with the ninja, since they might be more accustomed to "using iron sights" rather than a targeting system like a tank or similar vehicle...?

Make sure this exception does not apply to heavy weapons attack.

[AngusKhan]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Make sure this exception does not apply to heavy weapons attack.

yes, agreed. Only standard infantry attacks should be able to avoid the penalties.

Originally Posted by Apache

I always figured manned units shot at Ogres using The Mark One Eyeball or self-guided munitions, since painting an Ogre with a laser seems to be an exotic form of suicide.

Bear in mind, however, that infantry would probably be firing at a closer range and would use fewer guidance systems and more "open sights". (However, they would use some targeting and guidance systems, just not as many as, say, a heavy tank)

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by AngusKhan

Bear in mind, however, that infantry would probably be firing at a closer range and would use fewer guidance systems and more "open sights". (However, they would use some targeting and guidance systems, just not as many as, say, a heavy tank)

Each suit has it's own targeting computer which might overwhelm the Ninja's ability to track them all.

Also by GURPS OGRE they attack with unguided nonnuclear weapons.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Also by GURPS OGRE they attack with unguided nonnuclear weapons.

And this is why G:OGRE....sucks.

'Nonnuclear weapons'......bleh.

[h3rne]

I think we maybe need some more clarity about what's actually being simulated here.

Option 1
The Ninja is essentially untrackable. You can only deduce it's position from it's firing pattern and fire on hexes where you think it might be or if it decides to engage during an overrun (it can choose not to and you pass by like it's not there).

Rules
The Ninja player plays on a second (hex-)map hidden from the defender and only shares the units targeted and munitions used.
e.g. "Your HVY just got hit by two 2Bs" "Aha! I know the ninja is within 4" of that HVY"

Problems
- Tracking. The hex map is needed to track the position of the Ninja. It might not mesh well with hexless miniature play. Other possibilities of tracking position are, to say the least, unsavoury if not downright unworkable.
- Trust. The Ninja player needs to be trustworthy beyond doubt (but hey - it's okay he's a ninja!) or you need a referee.
- Credibility. I can buy a human slipping through woods or prairie leaving no trace, but a cybertank is going to leave tracks, y'know? Really BIG tracks.
- Hairy Rules. A part from the tracking, the Ninja should actually only be suffering spillover fire which can't harm an OGRE so some other possibility is required. Also you can't target specific systems, so that would need addressing too. Arguably this could be abstracted as attacks at a -1 column shift.
- It's Broken. All the Ninja player needs to do is roll in without engaging any armour or infantry. Pirouette on the CP and roll out similarly. The defender knows the position of the Ninja for exactly one turn! A victory for the Ninja every time!

Conclusion
Let's not go there.

Option 2
The Ninja is able to throw ghost images over several tens of kilometres, but it's no more difficult to hit than usual.

Rules
This uses the bogey marker system. A given number of contacts enter the board as bogey markers. A direct hit "X" on a marker "destroys" it and it can then be placed on top of any other current marker (the Ninja is smart enough to abandon a ghost image once it's been rumbled and create a new one). If there's a direct hit "X" on the Ninja itself all the bogey markers are placed on top of it.

Problems
- You either don't need a Ninja miniature at all or you need a handful!
- What are these "ghosts" in actuality? How would the MKI eyeball react? Could you "kill" a ghost by moving into the adjacent hex "for a look"? Or is there actually some kind of image there? If so, how is it produced? We need some handwaving in SF "a drone"? "a projection" (from where?) that is more easily supplied in a fantasy setting "It's magic".

Conclusion
The extra rules are simple and have been suggested before in various different forms. My favourite take on them is a little more complex - to have the ghosts as clusters of drones. A D4 hit destroys a single drone in the cluster, but an "X" result on your targeted system reveals the ghost for what it is even if there's no damage. Whilst a single drone still remains, the ghost image persists. The Ninja player's tactic is to merge the drone clusters at regular intervals to re-muddy the waters (as it were). There's also scope for producing many fragile ghosts or fewer robust ones. However, tracking the actual number of drones falls foul of the same trust problems as option 1.

Option 3
The Ninja has very good ECM and ECCM as per the OGRE miniatures description. Localising it to a single hex/miniature is trivially easy as per the arguments against option 1. However, an OGRE being a hollowed out lump of BCP means that only a really well placed hit (i.e. X not D) does any damage at all and extreme levels of ECM and ECCM make these very accurate hits difficult. I'm thinking EM pulses , flooding selected EM wavebands, heat haze from the reactors and maybe some LCD-like covering projecting a cross between dazzle, DP, surrounding terrain, sky and OGRE components! Also, therefore, distance has no effect - all the ECM and ECCM is local to the OGRE anyhow.

Rules
-1 column shift on the CRT. No advantage to short range. ;)

Problems
Seems a fit good to me if we're clear about what we're trying to abstract.

Conclusion
If it aint broke...

I hope at least some of that was helpful.

Cheers

Simon*

[AngusKhan]

Originally Posted by h3rne

What are these "ghosts" in actuality? How would the MKI eyeball react? Could you "kill" a ghost by moving into the adjacent hex "for a look"? Or is there actually some kind of image there? If so, how is it produced? We need some handwaving in SF "a drone"? "a projection" (from where?) that is more easily supplied in a fantasy setting "It's magic".

I think there wouldn't be a projection per se, but rather a blip on the radar that is good enough to fool a computer system. That would mean that if somebody actually looked where the computer said to, there would be nothing there and the decoy would be "killed".

[Steve Jackson]

Question for h3rne:

What's a doddle?

[RKern]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Question for h3rne:

What's a doddle?

British slang for something that's really easy.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by h3rne

Could you "kill" a ghost by moving into the adjacent hex "for a look"? Or is there actually some kind of image there? If so, how is it produced? We need some handwaving in SF "a drone"? "a projection" (from where?) that is more easily supplied in a fantasy setting "It's magic".

Drones are actually part of the backstory for the game and form part of the answer as to why it's easier to fire over a city than into it.

Perhaps the Ninja could carry a small number of drones, some of which are decoy drones.