Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

[DSumner]

Originally Posted by Marcus Heinous

Darn it! Meant to add one issue/questipon on the Hairy Stealth thingie - how is the Super Heavy Tank affected by the no combining within 6" radius? Is it forced to attack at 2 strength 3 attacks or can it 'combine' with itself? For me, I think it should be immune and allowed to attack at a strength 6.

I'd say since it's a single unit, let it fire at a 6, as that makes the most since.

[Mark Hansen]

Originally Posted by FireHorse

I disagree.

While it's plausible that a Ninja's ECM can interfere with enemy targeting systems, or jam their communications and disrupt their coordination, it seems patently absurd to think that a 50-60' long tank weighing hundreds of tons could do anything to convince people that it was anywhere other than right where it is. I might even buy it presenting the 'ghost' radar images to confuse the enemy as it approaches them — but once any of them have physically seen where it really is, the game would be up. So I don't buy that it could do it again, after enemy units have already spotted it.

Agreed and with one other point. Even if you can make a building-sized tank invisible to the eye, you can't hide where it's been or where it's going. Dust from dry ground, bow wakes from the tower in water, damaged road surface etc. Also, the seismic effects would be impossible to hide or duplicate. If you're relying on IFF of some form, you can screen out all of your forces from a map and what remains must be the Ninja.

[Spire]

So now some insight to my twisted logic for the "Hairy Stealth Rule" (HSR) to prove it really wasn't insane ramblings at some gawd-awful hour of the morning ;^D

Jamming requires power, and the kind of Banzai Jamming (multiple types of jamming) the Ninja would be kicking out is going to use up a lot of power and this is going to limit the range it is effective at. In the 6" AoE, the Ninja has the upper hand in the EW battle. By jamming communications and targeting computers, drones producing holographic images (fooling the Mk 1 Eye-ball!) and false echoes, etc, etc, the Ninja can disrupt the coordination of the units in that area. Beyond that 6" AoE, a balance returns to the EW battle.

Against the incoming rounds, the jamming and the additional point defense weapons combine to give the Ninja the -1 modifier for the 1-1 and 1-2 attacks. The additional point defense can be overwhelmed by the combined efforts of multiple firing units, something that cannot occur in the 6" AoE, or units with higher strength attacks (representing more incoming rounds).

I see the Ninja more akin to the B-2 Stealth Bomber. Using RAM coatings, IR dampening and the like, it "shrinks" the effective range of detection systems. At an operational level, it becomes all but invisible and can maneuver in between the gaps created. On the tactical level, the Ninja has to rely on its armored hide, jamming and point defense systems. To represent this, I would like to add this the the HSR:

The Ogre Ninja is deployed on the board after all other units have been placed. It may be placed hidden anywhere on the map board that is outside the range of units of the opposing side. The Ninja may move, but not attack, and remain hidden. Simply record the starting location and record it's movement each turn. If either the Ninja or an opposing unit moves to where the Ninja is now within it's range, the Ninja is placed on the board. It remains on the board from that point on.

And for this:

Agreed, the SHVY is a single unit that can divide it's attacks. Say, by the gunner firing one tube and then the other. Either way, the SHVYs attacks are not limited by the HSR. Neither is an Ogre with it's multiple weapons, it's still a single unit. The Ninja, however always gets the -1 modifier against 1-1 and 1-2 attacks, even in Overruns.

[smgray1]

I have always seen the Ninja rules reflecting the impact of electronic countermeasures on board. In my mind it is not an issue of can a Ninja be seen, rather it is an issue of the ECM being able to divert incoming ordinance guided by a guidance package on board the attacking units.

From a common sense standpoint though, maybe infantry (with the exception of Heavy Weapon Squad missiles) should be immune to the bonus.

We should strive to keep things simple.

[Steve Jackson]

And it's quite possible that Ogreverse tanks can launch decoys, as a modern sub or airplane can, that will mimic its signature. With the right assumptions about holography, an AFV in cooperation with even a single drone could create a duplicate visual image somewhere else. Combine this with armor that mimics the appearance of what's on the other side . . .

(Note: The warranty on smart armor that mimics the appearance of what's on the other side is voided by mistreatment. Mistreatment includes driving your AFV where people can shoot nukes at it. In other words, yes, I do see the problem here. I'm just waving my arms and making stuff up. They pay me for that.)

[Aman]

Seems to me that elegant simplicity being the rule with OGRE/GEV, the stealth effects should be limited to the best observations along those lines. Since I can remember these rules suggestions off the top of my head, they must be simple!

So how about:
* -1 to all attacks
* No combined attacks
* Neither apply in overruns.

Anyone should be able to remember that. Also, it means that at point blank, all the electronics in the world aren't going to fool the people shooting "over open sights" or "using iron sights" so to speak.

I hate rules that have exceptions, like "no combined attacks within 6 inches" which means combined at greater than 6 and not within 6. Since overruns are already have their own rules, it's not hard to simply remember the stealth aspects do not apply and the overrun is "normal" per the rules.

Also, this encourages players to use their Stealth Ogre...stealthily, not overruning things left and right.

Finally, one way to offset the 50% reduction in 1:1 attacks against the treads caused by the -1 would be to simply have even fewer treads, say 32 tread units, going down at -1" for the loss off every 4. For the board game, this would translate to going down 1 hex for every eight lost.

[DSumner]

Originally Posted by Aman

Seems to me that elegant simplicity being the rule with OGRE/GEV, the stealth effects should be limited to the best observations along those lines. Since I can remember these rules suggestions off the top of my head, they must be simple!

So how about:
* -1 to all attacks
* No combined attacks
* Neither apply in overruns.

Anyone should be able to remember that. Also, it means that at point blank, all the electronics in the world aren't going to fool the people shooting "over open sights" or "using iron sights" so to speak.

I hate rules that have exceptions, like "no combined attacks within 6 inches" which means combined at greater than 6 and not within 6. Since overruns are already have their own rules, it's not hard to simply remember the stealth aspects do not apply and the overrun is "normal" per the rules.

Also, this encourages players to use their Stealth Ogre...stealthily, not overruning things left and right.

Finally, one way to offset the 50% reduction in 1:1 attacks against the treads caused by the -1 would be to simply have even fewer treads, say 32 tread units, going down at -1" for the loss off every 4. For the board game, this would translate to going down 1 hex for every eight lost.

Hmmm...that all sounds completely reasonable to me.

[Toltrin]

I wonder if the ninja would participate in the Ninja Parade here.

[OgreMarkXXX]

I'm pretty sure someone would notice an ogre rolling down the street. Would it give out candy too? I want some!

[DCP]

I'm obviously expanding discussion on Toltrin's OT offering but an Ogre would be classified as my favorite "Japanese oxymoron", as a Sumo-Ninja. It would remain stealthed by exterminating any witnesses, of course. 8^)