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View Poll Results: So what about that Ninja, hey?
Leave it as is in Ogre Minis. 53 36.05%
Add a hairy "stealth" rule and increase the point value. 37 25.17%
I'm going to playtest some before I answer. 35 23.81%
I am a pirate. I do not play with Ninjas. 22 14.97%
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-15-2014, 04:45 PM   #101
Dakk
 
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'd say 'good luck making that work on a tank in combat', but why go half way? Good luck getting that to still work after your tank has been nuked a few times.
Actually a couple of nukes would make a lot of things disappear.

But that's really a silly argument. Good luck making a tank that can survive a direct nuke hit in the first place. We're talking OGRE here, not reality. I simply pointed out that if it exists in our reality, you shouldn't wonder if it might exist in some fictional future world.

You're comment about the making it work on a tank in combat is also silly. You don't think the government isn't already all over electronic camo?

Last edited by Dakk; 01-16-2014 at 02:02 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:16 PM   #102
ken
 
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

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Originally Posted by Norsehound View Post
I'm not an Ogre Veteran but I like the idea of giving the Ninja some subtle bonuses and not going over the top with it. The -1 modifier seems to work for that, but I don't know if I like the Ninja harming units that are shooting at it outside of its own fire phase.

And the movement-fire option seems like it's better suited for some kind of experimental Mark VI.

Ninja bonuses I think should be purely defensive. The -1 penalty on all armor unit attacks against the Ninja sounds good, though I want to test it myself to see how effective it is.

The other things I can think of are shifting the column to the left for all attacks or treating the Ninja like it was two hexes further for range when making the attack. The former sounds a little too much, but the latter might be interesting.
I kinda of like the range idea. In an ECM and ECCM battle field that makes sense. That plus the standard -1 on all unit attacks makes for a fairly nice unit.

How does that balance against 25 AU (on the reference sheet) or 150 VP?

P.S. is that -1 on the dice roll of all attacks or only attacks from armor?
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:34 PM   #103
offsides
 
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

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Originally Posted by ken View Post
I kinda of like the range idea. In an ECM and ECCM battle field that makes sense. That plus the standard -1 on all unit attacks makes for a fairly nice unit.

How does that balance against 25 AU (on the reference sheet) or 150 VP?

P.S. is that -1 on the dice roll of all attacks or only attacks from armor?
All attacks against a Ninja are at -1 on the roll. Please note that the net result of that is similar to shifting the odds by one column, though not exactly.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:03 PM   #104
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

Found this interesting related story...


Quote:
Because the images on the tank's exterior would change as the surroundings change, ostensibly such an active camouflage system could cloak the vehicle even as it moves across an environment.
http://www.popsci.com/technology/art...le-battlefield
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Old 01-16-2014, 03:06 PM   #105
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

Change the sensor tower to the jammer tower.

Jammer tower: D3. While intact once during each enemy fire phase, the Ninja can redirect one attack per turn against its hex to an adjacent hex. This redirected attack is considered directed at the terrain in that new hex, but it can also cause spillover against units in that hex.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:49 PM   #106
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

If that sensor tower was implemented it would have to be in place of the -1 bonus, and the +2 hex distance that I was thinking of. It is pretty nifty on the defense... I presume Cruise Missiles are exempt from that rule?
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:45 AM   #107
voxelapocalypse
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

We all are going to have our own takes on what a NINJA should be.

Which is also why I am proposing two versions of it.
The design concept allows plenty of room for another more advanced version while keeping the base model NINJA.

This can be looked at as a unit that specializes in two different ways, yet at it's core design concept, is a defensive raider due to it's 1- to the die roll or CRT shift.
(I prefer the CRT Shift because it's simply easier to do at-a-glance and see what your odds are depending on the odds you are currently rolling on)

The two different versions can be seen as:

*(NINJA) All Defensive bonuses
*(SHINOBI Kishu) (Means surprise attacker)
A combination of Defensive and Offensive bonuses, It would be a later or more advanced version of the NINJA.

So, my proposal I mentioned above would be for the SHINOBI Kishu, the more advanced version of the NINJA.
Those who prefer the -1 to the die roll or CRT Shift only can use that model.

If you have not play tested the SHINOBI using the NE and D results Disable the unit that caused them, give it a try. See what you think.
Imho, it's really a lot of fun and really suits the NINJA's ability to go in deep and mess stuff up.
There is an uncertainty factor as well when units will be disabled and how long they would be disabled.
(They are treated as Disabled by Terrain, so would become undisabled on a 1-4 die roll.)
It creates a palpable sense of suspense not found in the base model NINJA, or any where else in the game for that matter.
These units are attempting to overcome the NINJA Shinobi's advanced capabilities. Not many SHINOBI's were built. They were just too expensive.
The SHINOBI's would be even rarer and more expensive, and more tactically fun to play. ;)

Last edited by voxelapocalypse; 01-17-2014 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 01-17-2014, 03:40 AM   #108
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

I still don't like the idea of the Ogre doing harm to units from anything other than when the Ogre attacks. This could neutralize GEVs easily and make it easier for the Ninja to stomp on the CP, for example, with nothing to catch it. Disabling happens during the owning player's fire phase, which would prevent the GEVs from utilizing their second move, no? And what about Infantry, or are they exempt from that attack rule?

It just sounds like a frustrating opponent to fight against. I'm penalized by shooting at this thing? How is that fun?

-1 to rolls and -1? to range of anything shooting at the Ogre is difficult enough, but at least your units are intact so they can keep trying. And I think allowing the Ogre to roll 2 dice and choose one on the attack conveys their mystical lethality that you're trying to accomplish.

Last edited by Norsehound; 01-17-2014 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 01-17-2014, 05:09 AM   #109
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

Range "penalties" don't work - the -1 to die rolls already gives the requisite bonus. Also remember, at -1 max range INF become useless against it unless they overrun (which is suicide and likely won't even get a shot off), and -2 max range would make it immune to anything other than SHVY, MSL, (M)HWZ, and Ogre MB & Missiles (again except in overruns, which would still be suicide).

I think you're underestimating the effect that -1 die roll modifier gives; it really makes a huge difference against an Ogre, where only Xs count...
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Old 01-17-2014, 05:55 AM   #110
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
Range "penalties" don't work - the -1 to die rolls already gives the requisite bonus. Also remember, at -1 max range INF become useless against it unless they overrun (which is suicide and likely won't even get a shot off), and -2 max range would make it immune to anything other than SHVY, MSL, (M)HWZ, and Ogre MB & Missiles (again except in overruns, which would still be suicide).

I think you're underestimating the effect that -1 die roll modifier gives; it really makes a huge difference against an Ogre, where only Xs count...
So that would mean that at 1-1 only a 6 hits and a 1-2 = NE?
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