Mechanics/techniques to incentivize disadvantages

[dataweaver]

Personally, I have a problem with using “pay as you go” for leveled traits like Attributes, Skills, Techniques, and Charisma. What level can you claim before paying for it? That's actually what I was thinking of in my earlier post; but I agree that Advantages that grant a fixed bonus (such as Combat Reflexes) could theoretically work.

That said, there are problems there, too. Fate can get away with a so-called pay you go model for bonuses because the bonus is standardized across the system: one Fate Point will always get you a +2 bonus. With different Advantages granting different bonuses, pay as you go becomes more problematic. That was the other reason I was thinking that traits that provide bonuses should be off limits for pay as you go.

I'm also a bit leery of traits with passive effects that automatically kick in under certain conditions: that's fine for “reward as you go”; but what happens if you have insufficient funds when it comes time to pay in a “pay as you go” model? It works fine as long as the trait is one that the player can choose not to use; but that's why I mentioned traits that automatically kick in. Do you need to spend one point every night if you have Less Sleep?

In short, “pay in advance” is needed in situations where “pay as you go” isn't feasible.

Conversely, Extra Life arguably already operates on a pay you go structure; it's just that you pay 25 points at a time (arguably a fair price save your character from dying).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Personally, I have a problem with using “pay as you go” for leveled traits like Attributes, Skills, Techniques, and Charisma. What level can you claim before paying for it? That's actually what I was thinking of in my earlier post; but I agree that Advantages that grant a fixed bonus (such as Combat Reflexes) could theoretically work.

That said, there are problems there, too. Fate can get away with a so-called pay you go model for bonuses because the bonus is standardized across the system: one Fate Point will always get you a +2 bonus. With different Advantages granting different bonuses, pay as you go becomes more problematic. That was the other reason I was thinking that traits that provide bonuses should be off limits for pay as you go.

True. One idea is to make the payment proportional to the cost of the trait. E.g. pay 1 unit of impulse points per 10 points worth of a trait activated (that's an oversimplified example).

Originally Posted by dataweaver

I'm also a bit leery of traits with passive effects that automatically kick in under certain conditions: that's fine for “reward as you go”; but what happens if you have insufficient funds when it comes time to pay in a “pay as you go” model? It works fine as long as the trait is one that the player can choose not to use; but that's why I mentioned traits that automatically kick in. Do you need to spend one point every night if you have Less Sleep?

In the case of things like Less Sleep, I wonder if perhaps FATE's approach to Aspect persistence is applicable here too. Sure, you sleep 4 hours instead of 8 every day. Does it make a difference? Do you spend that time to earn more money than other PCs? Or do you spend the extra 4 hours for partying, with no appreciable effect? Or do you eventually go "Actually, during that partying, I met someone whom I'll now call to help me out with my current adventure"? It seems to me that the second case shouldn't require payment as you go.

The other example is with Bad Temper: the character is always bad-tempered, but how often does it matter? Sure, you yelled at the Princess Who Promised A Half-Kingdom If You Save Her Groom Prince; but did she reduce your reward to a quarter, or did she just shrug and say "Adventurers; always like that; whatever"?

[RyanW]

I've been thinking about this, and thinking about replacing the more role-playing style disadvantages (Code of Honor, Sense of Duty, Bloodlust, etc.) with a pool of points connected to more freeform personality traits. You gain points in this pool by faithfully playing your character, and can use them for Impulse Buys.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

True. One idea is to make the payment proportional to the cost of the trait. E.g. pay 1 unit of impulse points per 10 points worth of a trait activated (that's an oversimplified example).

Bear in mind that there's already an Impulse Buy that lets you upgrade success. Buying a bonus would need to balanced against this, which would be problematic.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

In the case of things like Less Sleep, I wonder if perhaps FATE's approach to Aspect persistence is applicable here too. Sure, you sleep 4 hours instead of 8 every day. Does it make a difference? Do you spend that time to earn more money than other PCs? Or do you spend the extra 4 hours for partying, with no appreciable effect? Or do you eventually go "Actually, during that partying, I met someone whom I'll now call to help me out with my current adventure"? It seems to me that the second case shouldn't require payment as you go.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The other example is with Bad Temper: the character is always bad-tempered, but how often does it matter? Sure, you yelled at the Princess Who Promised A Half-Kingdom If You Save Her Groom Prince; but did she reduce your reward to a quarter, or did she just shrug and say "Adventurers; always like that; whatever"?

I've got no problem with disadvantages that get imposed on the character; it's not like the player will ever run into a case where he's unable to accept the Point that the disadvantage gives him. No, my problem is specifically with the notion of Advantages that are triggered by circumstances that the player can't veto, leading to the possibility of his Points being spent for him, and depleting the pool he has at his disposal.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Bear in mind that there's already an Impulse Buy that lets you upgrade success. Buying a bonus would need to balanced against this, which would be problematic.

I'm actually still unsure whether the Buying Successes are priced . . . in a way that makes for a good game if these points are replenishable one way or another and cannot be spent on a permanent upgrade.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

I've got no problem with disadvantages that get imposed on the character; it's not like the player will ever run into a case where he's unable to accept the Point that the disadvantage gives him. No, my problem is specifically with the notion of Advantages that are triggered by circumstances that the player can't veto, leading to the possibility of his Points being spent for him, and depleting the pool he has at his disposal.

Well, if we're going FATE-like, then the player may veto both Disadvantages and Advantages that work on a payment-per-invocation basis. "The ally didn't show up"; "the Princess didn't find you Bad Temper sufficiently bad"; "The Enemy lost your trail, apparently"; "The Phantom Pain subsided this week"; "this NPC doesn't seem to have a proper respect for his social betters" etc.