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Old 04-04-2018, 12:13 PM   #751
Bayarea
 
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

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Way back in 2000 on the Brainiac Site Joe Hartley, suggested rules for pulling someone out of HTH. Basically the puller had to make his DX with the +4 for the character on the ground, and the character on the ground had to miss his saving roll. I suggest for the saving roll 3 vs Dx if Puller has same or lower ST than the Pullee and 4 vs DX if Puller has a higher ST.
Okay last night a thought came to me of one guy pulling a giant out of HTH...

So add to the proposal: A character (or group) must be able engage a larger figure to attempt to pull a participant out of HTH combat. Also if the number of hexes of the pulling group is less than the number of hexes of the figure in HTH the figure rolls one less die on his saving roll for each hex fewer of pullers.

Example 1: A Giant is engaged in HTH with another figure, 2 men come and try to pull the giant off. The giant's saving roll would be on 2 dice. If 3 men tried to pull him off then because the number of hexes would match it would be a 3 die saving roll for the giant.

Example 2: A 7 hex dragon, could not be pulled off by 4 men (or a giant and 1 man) even though they could engage the dragon. The dragon would have a 3 hex advantage so it would receive an automatic saving roll. Two Giants would only cause a 2 die saving roll. 3 giants would create a 5 die saving roll for the dragon.
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:35 PM   #752
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

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I know it has been mentioned here before but Illusions are too powerful for an 11 IQ spell. Can anyone say Octopus with 3 broadswords. Maybe moving it up in IQ it a 14-15 range?

Also I would make the rule that if something that isn't a normal summoned beast (wolf, bear, gargoyle etc.) give a free 4 die vs IQ disbelieve roll as the character should have an idea this isn't real.

That way the spell won't be abused quite as much.
I don’t see any problem with limiting illusions by total number of attribute points. So an IQ 11 Illusion might allow a 36 point figure. You can still create an illusion of a more powerful figure, but it will max out at 36 points. A higher IQ level spell for more powerful figures. Or, make the ST cost dependent on the attribute total of the illusion. And experienced warriors would likely know that a summoned Octopus would be an illusion (since there is no Summon Octopus spell).
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:47 PM   #753
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Way of reining in Illusions.

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I don’t see any problem with limiting illusions by total number of attribute points. So an IQ 11 Illusion might allow a 36 point figure. You can still create an illusion of a more powerful figure, but it will max out at 36 points. A higher IQ level spell for more powerful figures. Or, make the ST cost dependent on the attribute total of the illusion. And experienced warriors would likely know that a summoned Octopus would be an illusion (since there is no Summon Octopus spell).
Hi Ty, everyone.
The problem is, that this system does not handle powerful abilities which are not reflected in the attribute total. How many attributes is a demon's ability to teleport worth? Or an earth elemental's ability to move thru the rock?

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 04-07-2018, 11:30 PM   #754
JLV
 
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

That's actually the same problem that people have when they try to come up with "challenge levels" for TFT creatures -- there's no way to easily quantify some of the characteristics so you can make a sensible mathematical comparison between, say, a Greater Demon, and an advanced character with some magic items...

In a sense, that's part of the charm of the system for the players -- you pays your money and takes your chance; but it's a headache for novice GMs sometimes when they don't want to completely overmatch their players right out of the gate, and don't yet have a great "feel" for how the monsters work...
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:02 AM   #755
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

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That's actually the same problem that people have when they try to come up with "challenge levels" for TFT creatures -- there's no way to easily quantify some of the characteristics so you can make a sensible mathematical comparison between, say, a Greater Demon, and an advanced character with some magic items...
This is especially true with powers the usefulness of which vary by the situation. In a mine, the earth elemental moving through rock is a game changer, on a boat, it's useless.

I see an underlying tension in many of these rules discussions between "boardgame" with everything fully quantified and "role-playing game" which relies heavily on the GM's judgement and discretion.

Melee/Wizard and TFT can fit a wide range of play styles, and that may be it biggest strength.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:58 PM   #756
Jim Kane
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

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Melee/Wizard and TFT can fit a wide range of play styles, and that may be it biggest strength.
Well said!

JK
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Old 04-12-2018, 01:17 PM   #757
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I've been thinking about *how* the new ITL would ideally appear. As it stands, the rules are somewhat of a mishmash and leap from topic to topic. Add to that the existence of Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard, which strip sizable chunks of the rules apart, and I wonder if a major reorganization of the rules books wouldn't be in order...

For example, I could see changing Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard into one book, which would address the basic rules for combat and magic with additions, focusing on the game turn options, and the nuts and bolts of how magic and combat work with the various new things added to the game. This would be a perfect place to include things like mounted combat, sea combat and flying combat in more detail. It might also be a good place to put together some mass combat rules. It might also be a proper place to put things like Alchemy and Chemistry, Herbology and so on. It would also be a great place to explore alternate magic systems if such a thing were considered desirable (e.g., the basic Wizard uses "sorcery" while some other types might use "rune magic" or "witchery" that might differ in some ways from normal magic as described in Wizard, and then there might be yet another form called "fae magic" for the creatures of faery who do things differently yet again).

It might be advisable to focus on purely man-to-man combat in the above volume and either simultaneously or subsequently publish a separate volume for mass combat situations on land or sea (or in the air or underground, for that matter). This could, perhaps even be handled in the same way Lords of the Underearth attempted to handle mass combat underground -- by publishing separate games dealing with mass combat on land and at sea (and even underground, or in the air). Let's face it, if something similar to Lords of the Underearth was written a little more carefully, it would solve the mass combat issue while giving a great game to the system (I know, you don't own the copyright to that one, but it would be easy enough to create a similar game for the same purpose), while doing something similar to Gondor from SPI would do the same thing for both surface and siege combat, and something similar to a combination of Ramspeed and Frigate (from SPI, back in the day) would do the same for naval combat. Aerial combat is a different problem, and three dimensions will be difficult to handle for a mass combat situation, so I don't have any relevant suggestions to offer there...unless maybe something fairly abstract (like air power in Samurai Sunset, for example) was created. However, SJG has some experience with the issue in their GURPS Mass Combat book...

In The Labyrinth would continue to exist, but now focused exclusively on "game-mastery thingies" like time and distance scales, terrain issues, crime and punishment, social classes/organization, guilds, macro and micro economics, religion, dungeon/outdoor wilderness/urban design, diseases, poisons, encounters and reaction rolls, food and water issues, encumbrances, weather, random encounters, etc -- all the things the GM has to worry about but that the player usually doesn't. This might also be a good place to discuss magic item creation, potion and poison creation, apprenticeships, and so on.

Next maybe a Player's Guide -- which addresses the details of creating characters, including all the skills/talents, magical spells listings (repeated here from the AM/W book, perhaps), learning times, languages, money and upkeep, day-to-day living (or week-to-week/month-to-month, whatever seems reasonable in the time scales involved) in both peace and while on the road to adventure, roleplaying hints for players, basic info on roleplaying (including the ever-popular *example*), things that more advanced characters might do with their time (run a business, church, magic school, or city or fief, for example) and so on.

Finally, there would be a Bestiary, which includes a large selection of player races, animals, plants, monsters, magical creatures, etc.

So, basically, I would see an increase from three to four books (the Bestiary being the additional book, which I think we'd all like to see), with Advanced Wizard and Advanced Melee being combined into one book which is primarily addressed to new and additional mechanics of the tactical combat games; ITL being converted more into a GM Guide type of volume, addressing the nuts and bolts of creating and running adventures and campaigns; and a Player's Guide being added (to replace one of the AM/AW pair) which addresses the nuts and bolts of creating and playing a character throughout that character's "life" in the game. Mass Combat would either be a fifth book, or a series of two or three new minigames, but in either case could be deferred for a while until details are worked out.

Finally, you could add a Cidri splat-book dual written for both GURPS and TFT if you were so inclined...

None of the four basic books would have to be terribly large, given that most of the rules already exist in one form or another and much of the "new" GM material would be more in the nature of essays than actual rules, and the restructuring would provide a more logical method for both writing and finding the applicable rules.

Thoughts?

Last edited by JLV; 04-12-2018 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:04 AM   #758
Terquem
 
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

A lot of what you suggest make sense, sort of - but at the same time I'm not sure I agree

See, if I understand where Steve Jackson Games is right now, I don't know that it makes sense to put that much effort into it.

For nostalgia, I would love to see the original properties cleaned up, edited for clarity and delivered in a "shinny new collectors box"

I would like that

But why go to so much effort to make it a game that can stand on the shelf against other, more popular versions of the same thing?

I mean Dungeon Fantasy is becoming my favorite game. I don't want to stop buying game supplements for DF, because I want to spend money on TFT:ITL

No, my opinion would be to clean up the original books and pocket games and release them purely as nods to where we were to stand as demonstrations of how far we've come. They could still be taken out and played, on a weekend when you want to experience them for the nostalgia, but to take them on as projects that need to be updated to be able to stand on the same footing as GURPS or DF seems like an effort without the right sort of pay out.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:44 PM   #759
Rick_Smith
 
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Default TFT or Dungeon Fantasy. False dichotomy.

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A lot of what you suggest make sense, sort of - but at the same time I'm not sure I agree ...

No, my opinion would be to clean up the original books and pocket games and release them purely as nods to where we were to stand as demonstrations of how far we've come. They could still be taken out and played, on a weekend when you want to experience them for the nostalgia, but to take them on as projects that need to be updated to be able to stand on the same footing as GURPS or DF seems like an effort without the right sort of pay out.
Hi Everyone, Terquem.
Steve Jackson has said that he thinks TFT is so different from GURPS, that the two games will not steal sales from each other.

I think that if TFT becomes popular, it might feed people into GURPS eventually.

And I've heard that the sales for Dungeon Fantasy (boxed set) have been poor. That it won't be reprinted.

I think SJG has every reason to fix TFT's problems and make it as popular as possible. It could be a money maker and help keep GURPS afloat. Years ago, I used to see GURPS in local game stores all the time. Now, it is totally gone.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:56 PM   #760
JLV
 
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

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Originally Posted by Terquem View Post
A lot of what you suggest make sense, sort of - but at the same time I'm not sure I agree

See, if I understand where Steve Jackson Games is right now, I don't know that it makes sense to put that much effort into it.

For nostalgia, I would love to see the original properties cleaned up, edited for clarity and delivered in a "shinny new collectors box"

I would like that

But why go to so much effort to make it a game that can stand on the shelf against other, more popular versions of the same thing?

I mean Dungeon Fantasy is becoming my favorite game. I don't want to stop buying game supplements for DF, because I want to spend money on TFT:ITL

No, my opinion would be to clean up the original books and pocket games and release them purely as nods to where we were to stand as demonstrations of how far we've come. They could still be taken out and played, on a weekend when you want to experience them for the nostalgia, but to take them on as projects that need to be updated to be able to stand on the same footing as GURPS or DF seems like an effort without the right sort of pay out.
Honestly, I don't see it as that much work, except for the paste-up part -- which has to be completely re-done anyway. The rules are already in place, barring a few things in the ITL booklet and the mass combat stuff. All they'd really be doing is shuffling things into a more "user-friendly" format, logically organizing things, and enabling the players to find information more quickly. As I said above, most of the new ITL stuff would be in the form of essays, not rule-packed blocks of text (religion, macro-economics, and probably upgrading the general instructions on designing dungeons/outdoor areas/urban areas).

Also, as I said above, the mass combat section could easily be delayed to see if it's worth doing (that is, does demand exist? And should it be as a book or in the form of mini-games?)

In short, if they have to re-do all the paste-up anyway, why not reorganized to simplify things for everyone? In fact, if they do, it will almost certainly improve sales -- since new players will want something a lot more accessible than the original books (done back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth -- I'm 57, and bought my original copies hot off the magazine rack in 1981)...

(And sadly, it appears you are among the very few WRT Dungeon Fantasy, given that Phil Reed said it did poorly and wouldn't be reprinted in the SJG Annual Report (if memory serves). I backed DF, and have it, but I'll cheerfully skip it for a good TFT game. In fact, if the new TFT is as awesome as I think it probably will be when Steve gets done with it, there's a good chance I'll be selling my copy of DF on Amazon... After all, I only backed it hoping that it would get me closer to the original TFT experience, and now that the original TFT experience is on the horizon again, my interest in DF has dropped.)

Last edited by JLV; 04-13-2018 at 03:05 PM.
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