Origins or Design Base

malachi666 · 12-02-2010, 06:25 PM

OK,

So I have been obsessing over IN in recent weeks. I have read through the Main, Angelic, and Infernal player's guides. I am not sure what I will read next.

What I can't help thinking about is where the ideas for the various bands and choirs came from. Some are obvious like Seraph and Cherubs.

What was the basis for the Kyrotates (also how is the actually pronounced?), the Malakim?

Anyways I will post more questions here as I think of them...

Jason · 12-02-2010, 06:27 PM

Most of the names for things in this game seem to come from actual old books on angelology and demonology. I thought it was really neat to read that Nybbas is a name for a demon traditionally associated with storytelling, for instance.

I'm not sure where 'kyriotate' comes from, though ... not seeing non-IN references to it online... (EDIT to add: But "dominations" are indeed a Choir that comes up a lot.)

Rocket Man · 12-02-2010, 06:51 PM

"Malak" is Hebrew for "messenger," which is the same thing "angel" means in Greek. It's the usual singular in Hebrew for "Malakim." (The full term used for an angel is "Mal'akh Elohim," or "Messenger of God.") "Shedim," if I remember right, is the generic Hebrew word for demons.

Seraphim, Cherubim, Ofanim and Malakim are all names that have been traditionally used in Hebrew for angels or types of angels. Elohim, besides being a name of God Himself, can also mean "lords" generically and is sometimes used to refer to angels.

Bal, if I remember correctly, is a negative Hebrew prefix, so Balseraph would be something like anti-Seraph.

Andygal · 12-02-2010, 07:11 PM

Wikipedia informs me that "Kyrios" is classical Greek for god, lord, or master and is apparently used frequently to refer to Jesus in the early Greek versions of the NT.

Rocket Man · 12-02-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andygal

Wikipedia informs me that "Kyrios" is classical Greek for god, lord, or master and is apparently used frequently to refer to Jesus in the early Greek versions of the NT.

Good point! The Greek Orthodox Church still uses that formula, usually to refer to God directly: Kyrie Eleison (pardon any mispellings) is "God have mercy on us," usually paired with Christe Eleison, or "Christ have mercy on us."

JCD · 12-02-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

"Malak" is Hebrew for "messenger," which is the same thing "angel" means in Greek. It's the usual singular in Hebrew for "Malakim."

To paraphrase Terry Pratchett: Malakim use a lot of body language and they like to shout.

Jennifer · 12-04-2010, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

"Malak" is Hebrew for "messenger," which is the same thing "angel" means in Greek. It's the usual singular in Hebrew for "Malakim."

Really? Huh, learn something new every day. I'd always assumed that it was derived from "Melech" meaning "king". (Like in "melech ha olam" = "king of the universe".)

Rocket Man · 12-04-2010, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Really? Huh, learn something new every day. I'd always assumed that it was derived from "Melech" meaning "king". (Like in "melech ha olam" = "king of the universe".)

Well, I suppose Hebrew could have punsters, too. :-) (Especially since the Choir's teritary In Nomine name is "The Kings.")

More seriously, one word may be derived from the other. From what I can find, Malak, when not used for angels, most commonly referred to a king's envoy/messenger.

Archangel Beth · 12-12-2010, 05:40 PM

Malak Habbalah, if I recall correctly, are listed in one of the appendices of Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels. I think it was in a "scary/punishing" context, too. I believe I also found a possible source for Mercurians in that book, too. It's really excellent.

tHEhERETIC · 12-13-2010, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

Most of the names for things in this game seem to come from actual old books on angelology ...

One in particular. I've not had the pleasure (or the time actually) to read him in the original, but the choirs of angels in general use comes from pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite in the 4th or 5th century.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Angel
I have a lot of fun with the differences between pDA and IN canon, letting my sorcerer follow the former and the in-game reality be the latter.

Poking around the web's more esoteric sites you find some interesting 'facts' about angels--seraphim have six wings, for example.

Demonology is much more confused and diverse, and I applaud the editors of IN for making any sense of it at all! I've found hundreds of names and hardly a band among them.

Esoterica is my hobby, you see.

12-02-2010, 06:25 PM	#1
malachi666 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Ontario, Canada	Origins or Design Base OK, So I have been obsessing over IN in recent weeks. I have read through the Main, Angelic, and Infernal player's guides. I am not sure what I will read next. What I can't help thinking about is where the ideas for the various bands and choirs came from. Some are obvious like Seraph and Cherubs. What was the basis for the Kyrotates (also how is the actually pronounced?), the Malakim? Anyways I will post more questions here as I think of them...

12-02-2010, 06:27 PM	#2
Jason Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Boston, MA	Re: Origins or Design Base Most of the names for things in this game seem to come from actual old books on angelology and demonology. I thought it was really neat to read that Nybbas is a name for a demon traditionally associated with storytelling, for instance. I'm not sure where 'kyriotate' comes from, though ... not seeing non-IN references to it online... (EDIT to add: But "dominations" are indeed a Choir that comes up a lot.)

12-02-2010, 06:51 PM	#3
Rocket Man Petitioner: Word of IN Filk Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Longmont, CO	Re: Origins or Design Base "Malak" is Hebrew for "messenger," which is the same thing "angel" means in Greek. It's the usual singular in Hebrew for "Malakim." (The full term used for an angel is "Mal'akh Elohim," or "Messenger of God.") "Shedim," if I remember right, is the generic Hebrew word for demons. Seraphim, Cherubim, Ofanim and Malakim are all names that have been traditionally used in Hebrew for angels or types of angels. Elohim, besides being a name of God Himself, can also mean "lords" generically and is sometimes used to refer to angels. Bal, if I remember correctly, is a negative Hebrew prefix, so Balseraph would be something like anti-Seraph. __________________ “It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking” --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor Author: "What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger"

12-02-2010, 07:11 PM	#4
Andygal Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Canada	Re: Origins or Design Base Wikipedia informs me that "Kyrios" is classical Greek for god, lord, or master and is apparently used frequently to refer to Jesus in the early Greek versions of the NT. __________________ There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand trinary, those who don't, and those who are sick to death of this darn joke.

12-12-2010, 05:40 PM	#9
Archangel Beth In Nomine Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH	Re: Origins or Design Base Malak Habbalah, if I recall correctly, are listed in one of the appendices of Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels. I think it was in a "scary/punishing" context, too. I believe I also found a possible source for Mercurians in that book, too. It's really excellent. __________________ --Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)