Structure within powers anyone?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

You are saying I need to understand GURPS Powers.

No, your GM however should.

...the point of things like Psionic Powers is that it does the crunch for me to avoid Powers.

See above "can't do all the crunch" comments.

I do not count Powers as part of GURPS Basic.

No one else does either.

However, if you're running a Powers... you're GM should understand Powers, or at least be willing to firmly say "If it's not in [Genre Treatment Supplement] it doesn't exist".

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

You've missed one of my points. It is unclear in Psionic Powers whether various things are included in the powers or not. So it isn't a matter of saying "it's not in so you can't have it", the problem is trying to work out whether it is included or not.

Umm... how so? If a power doesn't say you can do something, you can't. Ain't gonna get much simpler than that.

I'll follow up with this in the next quote...



But, I'll note that my Players hate Psionic Powers because it makes Psionics vastly more expensive to use than Basic psionics.

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

Telereceive says you can read people's surface thoughts. Does that include their senses ie what they can see, hear, smell, feel etc? It doesn't say, so requires a ruling of the GM. He said no it does not, largely on the basis that to be able to send senses requires a technique so reading them probably also does. Edit: but that technique does not exist.

Correct. You cannot read people's senses using Telerecieve as it's written in Psionic Powers. That technique does not exist.

Where is the confusion?

If you want to develop the Technique and your GM agrees to it, use Under the Hood on pg 9 to figure it out. Or have your GM do it.

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

For example Telesend can be used without being able to see the target if you know them, one of the very few powers that applies to. Having established the connection it says you can follow it up with Telereceive but fails to say if the "need to see them" limit applies. If it applies then it is a bare use of Telereceive as normal so follow up is irrelevant, but it doesn't explicitly say you don't have to be able to see them. Telesend can send your senses, but there is no mention at all of whether it is possible to get someone's senses when using Telereceive. Psionic Powers is just so frustrating to use, the GM constantly having to make rulings on the spot or occasionally agree we just won't answer that question right now.

Is there something ambiguous about the follow quote?

Originally Posted by Psionic Powers pg. 57

Most Telepathy abilities can only be used on a subject that you can see, one you’ve “locked onto” with a sense like Telescan, or one you’ve made contact with via Telesend (i.e., you sent a thought to him and he did not mute it).

Alternatively, if you can hear the subject, or if you know his exact location (his hex, for advanced combat), you can use Telepathy at -5 to skill. The exceptions are Telesend and the abilities under Sense and Defense (pp. 66-67), which can be used “blind.”

"... or one you’ve made contact with via Telesend..." is pretty much a straight forward, "Yes, you've made contact, now go nuts with all your other Powers that normally can't be used blind".


Really, it as simple as "does it say you can do it under the power description?" and "does it offer a Technique to allow it?" If not, you can't do it.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

You are saying I need to understand GURPS Powers. I avoid it like the plague, and the point of things like Psionic Powers is that it does the crunch for me to avoid Powers. I do not count Powers as part of GURPS Basic.

Actually I did not say that.
There are no powers in GURPS Psionics (Maybe a modifier, but I dont think any that are nor spelled out) that are not in GURPS Basic.
To understand how a power works read the description and the statistics block to know what the underlying ability is so you can look it up in GURPS Basic.
A good understanding of the underlying powers in GURPS Basic and the GURPS Psionic book overall should be all you need to play with those rules.
Maybe something will come up that is not explained in one of those two books but I dont think that happens often.
But it does require those two books, there would be a lot pf extra writing otherwise (making the book bigger and more expensive).

GURPS Powers could be used without GURPS Psionics to build a psychic, what GURPS Psionics does is the heavy lifting by providing worked examples of the rules from GURPS Powers but you dont need the Powers book to understand and use them. The needed text was copied and explained in the GURPS Psionic book.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

The confusion is Telereceive says you can read surface thoughts. You seem to think it is obvious that does not include their senses. I don't think it is remotely obvious. When I go about my daily business most of my surface thoughts involve what I can see and hear. Why do you think it is so obvious that they are not included? Define the term "surface thoughts" and then we know what it includes, but the term is never defined.

As to Telesend and the quote on page 57 saying yes you can use that as contact, fine I'd forgotten that. I've been playing this character since 2011, it is not easy to keep every rule that applies at the front of my mind. So I read Telesend to check, and it isn't explicit. I shouldn't have to go off to a largely unrelated page to find what the power can do.

I don't know if you'll consider it satisfactory to be told, "That's in the Basic Set," but the Basic Set defines Mind Reading (the underlying advantage) as not including awareness of the subject's senses. You can get that, but it's as an enhancement, Sensory (+20%). You can pick up feelings, images, and general intent, and if you share a language, speech, but you don't get actual sight, sound, touch, and so on. With Sensory, you experience everything the subject experiences.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

Re refplace. Psionic Powers replaces the Psionics in GURPS Basic. While I expect to have to read (and more importantly remember) the rest of Basic, I assume I can skip the Psionics section of Basic because I am using Psionic Powers instead which completely replaces it. There is enough to read and remember already without reading stuff that is replaced by later rules.

Which is good, because "Mind Reading" and "Sensory" aren't in the Psionics chapter, they're in the Advantages chapter.

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

And for the record, I dislike 4E Psionics entirely, whichever variant. It's very expensive on points (I won't make the mistake of playing a 4E Psionicist again) and it has no flavour at all. It doesn't feel like a system, it is a bunch of powers with a "Psionics" sticker added at the last minute. I much prefer 3E Psionics, it is a thought out system of Psionics that makes sense and has real flavour.

Which is fine. I prefer the Advantage-based system as it is easier to modify and adapt to whatever I need at this point.

However, to reiterate what has already been said. While you don't need Powers, an understanding of GURPS is required.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

Re refplace. Psionic Powers replaces the Psionics in GURPS Basic. While I expect to have to read (and more importantly remember) the rest of Basic, I assume I can skip the Psionics section of Basic because I am using Psionic Powers instead which completely replaces it. There is enough to read and remember already without reading stuff that is replaced by later rules.

As I said earlier in the thread. Look at the stat block.
So when the GURPS Psionics Power is built off say Mind Reading with various modifiers you go look the advantage up in GURPS Basic and then any modifiers you need to.
And its fine if you dont like either version, I dont think anyone in this thread is trying to convince you to like it.
We each have our own tastes and there are things in both books about psionics I dont like or dont fit with a particular setting.
Thats why I added options like those I wrote for An Alien Way of Thinking in Pyramid.

What some of us are trying to do is ..
A) Help you understand the material better so you and your GM have an easier time of it.
B) Address the complaint you have made about how things are not explained.
C) Explain what I believe is a misconception about the purpose of the book, in that you seem to feel each power written should fully cover every possible question that may come up because that is what crunch is for.
In my view that is almost the opposite of crunch which is to me the actual stat block and how its built. For what it does I can find most of it in GURPS Basic and I appreciate the stat block pointing me where to go for further info. I dont want it to repeat stuff I can find elsewhere. Especially stuff in a core book. For the record (and authors/editors who read this) I do appreciate limited repetition of material not in a core book, even if I happen to have it.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

Ah, I hadn't grasped that. I thought you were all trying to say the way it is currently done is the best way, which I thoroughly disagree with. It is fair to explain how it currently is done (for better or worse), because that will indeed aid mine and my GM's understanding. Thanks.

Your welcome.
I understand how frustrating it can be if you feel everyone is attacking you or your ideas and preferences.
I dont care what you like or dislike unless it actually gets in my way. We all have our own preferences and our rights to them.
What I do care about is if you are needlessly frustrated since A) it can get in the way of more GURPS products if people dont like them (see getting in my way since I DO want more), B) It frustrates the problem solver in me. and C) I want people to have a good time.

One of the things I like about GURPS is its not tied to One True Way mechanics and is so modular. You could even build a Psionics character using skills as powers and just reskin GURPS Magic if your GM is willing.
Most of the powers are already spells so thats a good headstart.

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

And understanding of GURPS in general yes. But a book like Psionic Powers should fully explain the powers it provides. Add-on books are a pain in the neck if the reader has to keep flipping back to some previous definition of the power, wherever it may be. And when Psionic Powers was written page count was irrelevant because it was a PDF, and although it became a Print on Demand it is a slim book and a bit of extra padding to properly explain all the powers it provides would have done no harm at all.

This is however a point your actually wrong on. No offense meant and please let me explain.

A) Page and word count still cost money even digital. A lot of people think otherwise and as a former programmer its a problem. People think if its digital it is free and doesn't cost anything which is an excuse people use for piracy and complaints about paying for digital content.

The bigger the book and the more words in it the more work for the author AND editors and they have to get paid. Also larger books require more art and those guys need to get paid too. Then you have the layout person, etc.
So bigger books do cost more, even if only PDF.

B) A LOT of people would feel they are paying for stuff they already have and would complain loudly if too much from Basic was reprinted in a supplement.
They would feel ripped off.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

I will add that I'm currently going through Chinese Elemental Powers for a different character and I am finding that much easier going than Psionic Powers. For a start every power in CEP is completely explicit about what basic power and modifiers it is built from, without trying to hide it in Under The Hood sections (which I had assumed I didn't need to read, since I'm not tinkering with the powers). Second, for the ones I've looked at so far it seems more complete in describing what each power does.

I am employed as a computer programmer. I understand that digital content is not free, I simply meant that there was no hard and fast limit on Psionic Powers like 32 or 48 pages. And I'm happy to pay for "stuff I've already got" if it is provided in a more convenient form ie. on the page I'm already reading.

Glad your liking Chinese Elemental powers. Bill and PK have different writing styles, IMHO Bill is more narrative and PK more like an engineer or analytical. Both approaches have their advantages and drawbacks.
If you just look at the statistics block in PKs works you can see what they are built on just as with Bills work in Chinese Elemental Powers and Enhanced Senses.
What I bet is hard for you are the powers built as Techniques because they get a lot more complicated.
For Example Telerecieve is built with Mind Reading and Mind Probe so its a complicated build and with a lot of modifiers, also the various levels make it a harder read.
But then it gets really tricky with those Techniques of which there are 4.
Its explained in the Under The Hood bits but the Techniques are mostly just the base power with additional modifiers, using the Temporary Enhancements rule introduced in GURPS Powers.
All you really need to remember though is its built of the big power in that section.

I really do understand its a lot more complicated build than Elemental Powers. Two different approaches.

[weby]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

But, I'll note that my Players hate Psionic Powers because it makes Psionics vastly more expensive to use than Basic psionics.

Interesting. My players like Psionic Powers because it makes Psionics so much more versatile with the techniques and other options.

[weby]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

And for the record, I dislike 4E Psionics entirely, whichever variant. It's very expensive on points (I won't make the mistake of playing a 4E Psionicist again) and it has no flavour at all. It doesn't feel like a system, it is a bunch of powers with a "Psionics" sticker added at the last minute. I much prefer 3E Psionics, it is a thought out system of Psionics that makes sense and has real flavour.

I personally like the 4e psionics, mostly due to the flexibility and specific flavor of the system. In my current high power fantasy game psionics is one of the magic systems and players use it a lot differently than say sorcery so it definitely feels different.

I do agree on the point cost, at lower power levels playing a character whose main focus is psionics can be underwhelming, in such situations, taking a couple of psions to augment other traits tends to be much better.