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Old 05-29-2014, 01:38 PM   #1
chandley
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

Curious about pricing here.

The easy ones:

Extra any maneuver at all: 100 points (Altered Time Rate).
Extra Attack: 25 points (note this isnt a full attack maneuver, just another swing inside an existing attack maneuver.)
Extra Concentrate: 40 points (Compartmentalized Mind, No mental separation)
Extra Tracking: 5 points (also not quite full Extra Aim, but close).
Extra Feint: Formally subsumed into Extra Attack by Martial Arts.

So, Im curious about the rest:
Extra Ready: 25 points (per suggested houserule from Kromm here)
Extra Attack Maneuver: ?? (40 points like Concentrate?)
Extra Move: ?? (Enhanced Move is 20 points, so really cant be less than that)
Extra Aim: ??
Extra Evaluate: ?? (Where it might be different from Extra Aim above).
Extra Wait: ??

Obviously, the value of these will not sum to 100. It will generally always be better to take ATR than to take 2 or 3 of these. That is not really a problem, though it might be useful, both to price these and to keep multiple choices reasonably priced, to think of limitations to ATR that include them.

For example (ATR, Concentrate Only -60%) [40] might grow to (ATR, Concentrate and Attack only -20%) [80], and might end at ATR (Nuisance Effect, cant Wait -5%) [95].
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Old 05-29-2014, 03:01 PM   #2
DavidSev
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Default Re: Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

Another one I'd like to see the cost of is Extra Step. Would be very handy in a lot of fights, and in theory cheaper than extra move.

There's the "Giant Step" extra effort option in MA, but it'd be nice to be able to do it without the FP cost.
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Old 05-29-2014, 03:10 PM   #3
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSev View Post
Another one I'd like to see the cost of is Extra Step. Would be very handy in a lot of fights, and in theory cheaper than extra move.

There's the "Giant Step" extra effort option in MA, but it'd be nice to be able to do it without the FP cost.
Only for Calculating Step sounds like a -80% modifier on Move to me, meaning a +1 to Step reach should never be worth more than [10]. Alternatively, Mighty Blows is effectively +2 Striking ST [10] and +2 Striking ST (Thrust Only -40%) [6]; Flurry is +2 DX! (Only for negating RS penalties -50%) [15]; Feverish Defense is +2 Parry [10], or +2 Dodge [30]; Great Lunge is comparable to Long Arms [10]. All told, I'd say [10] is fair for Extra Step.
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Old 05-30-2014, 07:43 AM   #4
chandley
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

+10 for +1 step was my thought too, though I think there needs to be a cap, like no more than half move or something. 40 points for +4 to your step (giving a move 5 human a 5 hex "step") is worth rather more than 40 points for +8 move (upping that humans move to 13 and giving him a 2 hex step). Id be willing to go so far as saying "no more than double your natural step".

Suggesting pricing for the others:

Extra Attack Maneuver: 40 points
Extra Move Maneuver: 25 points
Extra Aim/Evaluate: 25 points
Extra Wait: N/A (I cant figure out how this would be balanced or playable, to double wait.)

Extra Attack Maneuver is by extension from Extra Concentrate, the two being roughly equivalent.
Extra Move Maneuver is something of a wag from Enhanced Move. An extra Move maneuver is more useful than just one level of Enhanced Move, but gives you less over all movement than higher levels. But it lets you Move, and then take an unpenalized Attack, or Concentrate, etc and keep your defenses.
Extra Aim/Evaluate: I rolled these together and based their price off of Extra Ready. More limited than a Ready in what they let you do, but more "adventurer useful" as they are direct combat bonuses that you get without losing a turn.
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Old 05-30-2014, 08:30 AM   #5
Not another shrubbery
 
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Default Re: Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSev View Post
Another one I'd like to see the cost of is Extra Step. Would be very handy in a lot of fights, and in theory cheaper than extra move.

There's the "Giant Step" extra effort option in MA, but it'd be nice to be able to do it without the FP cost.
We've gone around this block a few times, as you might discover with a search on "extra step" or similar keywords. Kromm once suggested 20 points. I've proposed a cost of 15 points a couple of times, in the belief that an extra step doesn't quite reach the utility of an extra point of Speed.
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:11 AM   #6
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

[QUOTE=chandley;1767702]Curious about pricing here.

Extra Ready: 25 points (per suggested houserule from Kromm here)

A little excessive, but not so bad - for comparison consider a wildcard Fast Draw! - the usual reason you would want to do this - is a good deal cheaper. On the other hand one of the Unique Technique (Speed [whatever]) power ups from Dungeon Fantasy for doing any one thing instantly gets you *one* thing this allows for 10 points.

Extra Attack Maneuver: ?? (40 points like Concentrate?)
Attack maneuvers are very versatile and very common - ATR that worked half the time (and attack is probably at *least* half the actions you take in situations you care about counting maneuvers) would be [80], I'd probably charge that.

Extra Move: ?? (Enhanced Move is 20 points, so really cant be less than that)
But not much more either, given you would rarely take Enhanced Move for anything other than your normal/best form of movement. Since 24 points would buy you an additional Enhanced Move as an alternate ability, and having more than 2 kinds of useful Move is pretty rare, calling it 25 points seems pretty fair.

Extra Aim: ??
Extra Evaluate: ?? (Where it might be different from Extra Aim above).
I might just roll those into Enhanced Tracking.

Extra Wait: ??
This is full ATR [100] - you can put pretty much anything into a Wait and then Wait for something that's basically certain to happen.

And I charge 10 for Extra Step. Calling it Extra Move (only for computing step) seems a reasonable enough mechanical route - I'm not sure that is -80%, but then not everybody would need the same number of levels. I wouldn't bother with a calculation myself, a flat 10 works well enough.
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:25 AM   #7
Figleaf23
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Default Re: Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

An extra maneuvre is just part of what you get for the price of ATR. It also includes effectively extra time for planning, and whatever benefits should naturally flow from experiencing time at a multiple of others' rate. You'd need to separate the maneuovre part of the [100] first or your calculations will end up skewed.
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

I think a RAW path to build this might be to look at Warp with Blink, but I get bogged down taking out the passive/defensive elements. In theory the lowest it could cost going this route is [20].
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:58 AM   #9
chandley
 
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Default Re: Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

Note, Im not really interested in the Extra Step discussion. As pointed out, theres already a thread for that, so maybe further conversation on it can hop there.

malloyd: You go for 80 points for Extra Attack maneuver by way of ATR half the time. But that might be somewhat character specific no? A mage or other "powers" user might be throwing concentrates out in place of attacks, and can get that for 40 points. Does that influence your opinion on the cost of an Extra Attack Maneuver at all?

Extra Aim and Extra Evaluate: From a discussion I had about colepterans, I was convinced that Extra Tracking cant bear the burden, at least is the hive minds opinion. This is, after all, a full extra maneuver, so you can use a scope and then fire in one round, not something you can do with Enhanced Tracking.

Agreed on Extra Wait.

Extra Ready might be worth the 25 points as it allows you to do stuff that Fast Draw does not, like open doors and cock crossbows (or load muskets). Along with rereading U parry weapons and double dagger weapons. Hence the 25 point argument.
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Old 05-30-2014, 11:14 AM   #10
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Default Re: Cost of Extra <Maneuver>

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
A mage or other "powers" user might be throwing concentrates out in place of attacks, and can get that for 40 points.
Compartmentalized Mind costs 50 CP.
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