Vehicles and Linked Damage

[Kalzazz]

How does followup damage work on vehicles?

For instance, a M4 Sherman DR 210, ST/HP 158 is being attacked with a Panzerfaust doing 6dx3 (10) cr ex with 5dx5 cr ex linked

How does it work out for damage to the tank and its crew?

[lexington]

It's a mystery. I PM'd Hans about it once but he never got back to me.

[PPoS]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

For instance, a M4 Sherman DR 210, ST/HP 158 is being attacked with a Panzerfaust doing 6dx3 (10) cr ex with 5dx5 cr ex linked

The 6dx3 (10) damage is applied to the tank. Then roll on the Table for damage to Occupants (in Basic Set Campaigns). The 5dx5 crushing explosion is for anyone outside the tank. See, the warhead itself doesn't really penetrate the armour of the tank, it explodes on impact and creates a "jet" of molten metal which showers the crew (6dx3). The rest of the explosive force is on the outside of the tank (5dx5). That's how HEAT weapons work.

I've always been convinced that this is how it should be interpreted. But, I can be wrong in my assumptions of course.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by PPoS

The 6dx3 (10) damage is applied to the tank. Then roll on the Table for damage to Occupants (in Basic Set Campaigns). The 5dx5 crushing explosion is for anyone outside the tank. See, the warhead itself doesn't really penetrate the armour of the tank, it explodes on impact and creates a "jet" of molten metal which showers the crew (6dx3). The rest of the explosive force is on the outside of the tank (5dx5). That's how HEAT weapons work.

I've always been convinced that this is how it should be interpreted. But, I can be wrong in my assumptions of course.

Same here, I've always assumed the linked damage is for people standing near the impact point of the weapon.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

How does followup damage work on vehicles?

For instance, a M4 Sherman DR 210, ST/HP 158 is being attacked with a Panzerfaust doing 6dx3 (10) cr ex with 5dx5 cr ex linked

How does it work out for damage to the tank and its crew?

Linked damaging effects are applied separately - the first hits the target only, while the second is applied as a normal explosion to everybody in range (with all the explosion bells and whistles).

But Follow-Up works differently: if the Carrier penetrates DR, a Follow-Up attack with the 'ex' enhancement is applied as an Internal Explosion. Now, tanks have no Vitals (edit: or maybe the engine and stuff counts as vitals?), so it's kinda meh, but if hit location struck is the 'Control Room' equivalent (tower, whatever), logically a follow-up should affect the Payload (read: anything inside the control room - from electronics to crew).

Which one is it? Your thread topic says Linked and your post says Follow-Up.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

But Follow-Up works differently: if the Carrier penetrates DR, a Follow-Up attack with the 'ex' enhancement is applied as an Internal Explosion. Now, tanks have no Vitals, so it's kinda meh, but if hit location struck is the 'Control Room' equivalent (tower, whatever), logically a follow-up should the Payload (read: anything inside the control room - from electronics to crew).

Tanks, like most powered vehicles, do have vitals. The engine primarily, and possibly other parts of the power system.

Depending on hit location, it might be more appropriate to treat an internal explosion on a vehicle as a confined explosion inside the crew compartment. Not sure whether the rules support that or not, need to dig into the basic set.

[OldSam]

He certainly means linked damage because that's what a normal Panzerfaust does have according to High-Tech (he quoted the stats correctly with '5dx5 cr ex' as linked damage).

A good example (stolen from Basic) for follow-up damage would be a poisoned dart. B381 explains that this 2nd effect (poison or whatever) occurs inside the target if the DR was penetrated, then ignoring DR. On the other hand for linked effects B381 it just says that both damage and resistance rolls are made separately for the primary and the linked effect (DR still counts).

-> With that in mind I'm quite sure that the persons inside a tank are still protected by the tank's armor when it comes to resolving the linked damage of a Panzerfaust (because the explosion is on the outer surface).

Of course the primary hit of the Panzerfaust is really dangerous for the occupants in the tank...
I'm not experienced with that rule but the solution clearly seems to be on B554/B555 with the Vehicle Hit Location and especially the Occupants Hit Table.


-- btw: Does anyone know why the Panzerfaust/Bazooka etc. do have such a small effective range...?! Something like 10/80 or 10/700? That means at a distance of 20 yd. the Panzerfaust would only make half damage, doesn't it? --

[Kromm]

Shaped-charge weapons normally have linked damage, not follow-up damage. It's a special case, however: Use the primary attack (the one with the divisor) against the target. Assess the secondary attack against everything else in the area.

This is a complexification of the Damage rules on pp. B268-269. On p. B281, shaped-charge weapons simply inflict nd×m(10) cr ex, and you're instructed to drop the (10) against everything but the target. Thus, the LAW, 84mm listed there does 6d×6(10) cr ex to the target and 6d×6 cr ex to those nearby.

Real-life shaped-charge weapons ideally expend more energy in the forward cone, though, which makes the Basic Set treatment overly simple. The same LAW on p. 148 of High-Tech (the FFV AT4) does 6d×6(10) cr ex to the target but only 7d×2 cr ex to those nearby. This added wrinkle allows us to model the differences between HEAT and HEDP more accurately (better armor-piercing vs. bigger incidental explosion), and to show how HEAT warheads have improved over time (an incidental blast larger than the armor-piercing one is often a design goal for HEDP, but for HEAT, it's a sign of an earlier, less-efficient model).

The one exception to all this is multi-stage HEAT. This uses the extra-complicated rules on p. 170 of High-Tech.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by OldSam

-- btw: Does anyone know why the Panzerfaust/Bazooka etc. do have such a small effective range...?! Something like 10/80 or 10/700? That means at a distance of 20 yd. the Panzerfaust would only make half damage, doesn't it? --

It always pays to read the footnotes! "[2] First Range figure is minimum range, not 1/2D." A similar footnote appears for grenade launchers, mortars, rifle grenades, and vehicular rocket launchers. These weapons and LAWs have no 1/2D, only a minimum range that reflects a high arc and/or an arming distance. Guided and homing missiles are even more complex; they use the first Range figure to mean speed, not 1/2D, and also have a minimum range given in a footnote.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It always pays to read the footnotes! "[2] First Range figure is minimum range, not 1/2D."

My bad, thanks for clarifying that!