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Old 12-22-2013, 05:55 PM   #1
Onkl
 
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Default Invention Modifiers

Hi guys

I am having trouble understanding the difference between these modifiers on B473.

Under Concept it says:
  • +5 if you have a working model you're trying to copy or +2 if the device already exists but you don't have a model

and
  • +1 to +5 if the item is a variant on a existing one

How do these two modifiers differ exactly? To me it sounds like it is the same. Could you please explain how these modifiers differ and when you would use what.

Thanks

Onkl
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Old 12-22-2013, 06:03 PM   #2
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Invention Modifiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkl View Post
Hi guys

I am having trouble understanding the difference between these modifiers on B473.

Under Concept it says:
  • +5 if you have a working model you're trying to copy or +2 if the device already exists but you don't have a model

and
  • +1 to +5 if the item is a variant on a existing one

How do these two modifiers differ exactly? To me it sounds like it is the same. Could you please explain how these modifiers differ and when you would use what.

Thanks

Onkl
I'd say those two modifiers are incompatible. If you're copying something, you've obviously got a existing item.
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Old 12-22-2013, 06:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: Invention Modifiers

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I'd say those two modifiers are incompatible. If you're copying something, you've obviously got a existing item.
I'm not sure about that. If you are trying to invent a new kind of car, you can do it with or without an existing car to dissemble and reassemble, right?
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Old 12-22-2013, 06:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: Invention Modifiers

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I'm not sure about that. If you are trying to invent a new kind of car, you can do it with or without an existing car to dissemble and reassemble, right?
Which would probably be under the +1 to +5 bonus. The way I see the +5 bonus working is you are copying the item exactly - it's the reverse engineering bonus. That's how I view it anyways.
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Old 12-22-2013, 06:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: Invention Modifiers

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Which would probably be under the +1 to +5 bonus. The way I see the +5 bonus working is you are copying the item exactly - it's the reverse engineering bonus. That's how I view it anyways.
That makes sense.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Invention Modifiers

I agree that they are incompatible, but have thought of it as reverse-engineering vs. improving:

+5 (reverse engineering): 'We've captured one of their starships intact! Now I can reverse-engineer their fusion drives!'

+2 (reverse engineering): 'They have some new siege engine outside the walls. Can I try to make something like that?'

+5 (improving): 'I want to make a car that is a bit faster and with better handling than what is available now.'

+1 (improving): 'So what I want to build is like a car, but with rockets for jumping. And stealth systems. And armor. And maybe pieces of it can turn into motorcycles.'

Those last two, obviously, are the GM's call on just how similar what you're trying to make is.
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Old 12-23-2013, 05:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: Invention Modifiers

So, does the bonus from the Visualisation advantage apply to Invention rolls? Because with the +1/margin of success on IQ roll, and Visualisation (Reliable +10, +50%) [15], you can get some absolutely ridiculous bonuses on pretty much all of your Invention rolls.
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Old 12-23-2013, 05:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: Invention Modifiers

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Originally Posted by nick012000 View Post
So, does the bonus from the Visualisation advantage apply to Invention rolls?
No. Visualisation requires you to visualise "a clear and specific action" and if you knew exactly what you needed to do, you wouldn't be inventing anything.
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Old 12-23-2013, 09:32 PM   #9
gjc8
 
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Default Re: Invention Modifiers

I don't see how they're incompatible, assuming that "similar to an existing device" means an existing device the inventor is already familiar with, whereas reverse engineering means "inventing".

We've captured an alien ship intact! Now we can reverse engineer it to duplicate their superior technology.

Their FTL drive uses a totally novel technology. It's a totally new device, so we don't get the variant bonus. But we have a working copy, so we get the +5.
Their life support is totally incompatible. It gains us no useful knowledge. But we have some life support systems, so when we invent our new ship, we can claim the variant on an existing item bonus.
Their fusion engines are more efficient than ours, but operate along basically the same lines. We don't have to invent a new engine design, simply a variant of existing designs, so we get the variant bonus. But we ALSO have a working model of the new variant we're trying to invent. So we can claim both bonuses.
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Old 12-23-2013, 10:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Invention Modifiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkl View Post
Hi guys

I am having trouble understanding the difference between these modifiers on B473.

Under Concept it says:
  • +5 if you have a working model you're trying to copy or +2 if the device already exists but you don't have a model
Working model: "All right, we've managed to snag one of their repeating rifles. Think you can build it?"
Already exists: "I'm sick and tired of getting out-shot by those repeating rifles they have. Andre, you've seen them -- think you can build one?"

Quote:
  • +1 to +5 if the item is a variant on a existing one
"Hmmm. You know, if we could get rid of the smoke and noise, this could be a near-undetectable sniper's weapon." (Runs off to invent the air rifle.)
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