02-09-2018, 08:26 AM | #81 |
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
A few comments.
A small team created to work with the manufacture and production of exotic steels or other metals would likely consist of a few PhD Material Engineers with that specialization, a couple of technicians (BS level perhaps higher), and a machinist(decades of experience) or two. Engineers verify microstructures and measure physical properties. They also propose new methods and solutions to the problems and difficulties that will be encountered. Technicians run the mills, rollers, heaters and presses etc. Machinists cut, bend and punch materials. There can be overlap on these jobs depending on what stage the process is in. Everyone knows Solidworks or the equivalent except for the cranky, old machinist who still uses Autocad because of reasons... Additive Manufacturing isn't there yet. Porosity and density remain major issues, with the result that the very best parts produced on a small scale only having ~70-80% of the desired physical properties of materials conventionally produced. This is for "common" metals with "common" geometries. |
02-09-2018, 08:37 AM | #82 | ||
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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02-09-2018, 09:30 AM | #83 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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I mean, when the design team is trying to figure out whether something would work, don't they have to run up test pieces? And don't the people developing armour specs have to be intimately familiar with the machines used to harden the final product, so they'll avoid design solutions that are prohibitively difficult to manufacture/finish with the set-up you have? A distributed logistics and supply chain with just-in-time delivery may be very efficient for the mass production of established designs, but I can't imagine it's very convenient for what amounts to new design work and the building of a series of prototypes, in seach of one perfect custom armour. Even the vehicular armour plates, at first, would be a new design, albeit a much simpler one, only trying to replicate the features of a known commercial product with a cheaper and easier manufacturing process. And they'd want the flexibility of being able to add other products than flat or gently curved plates, I imagine, as it would be extremely nice if they could flash bainite treat armour for what would otherwise be weak spots in trucks armoured with commercial plates of AR500 or other similar steels. So the workshop is probably going to be a place of experimentation and discovery for months, if not years, not simply running an easily repeatable process all day. They won't be building all that much volume, though. Practically speaking, 50-200 armoured trucks over the entire year would be as much as they could possible use without a major expansion of their sicario force. And the limiting factor there is the quality of recruits available, as Vargas has no desire to directly employ amateurs as his personal soldiers, at least without seeing some spark of future genius (or extraordinary ruthlessness) in them. He will accept fealty from underbosses with such employees, sure, but then he wouldn't expect to equip them himself. They could easily sell or trade the Sinaloa cartel at least an order of magnitude more armoured trucks than they have any use for personally, and Vargas could certainly make it more attractive to accept him as overlord by providing some equipment to his satellite gangs and crews. On the other hand, unless the GM thinks that having Vargas' splinter Caballero Templarios be a significant part of the logistical machine of the Sinaloa allegiance cartels would add something to the game or his planned adventure, that sort of volume would be something for a hypothetical future, not the current state of affairs. I mean, Vargas, his Disadvantages aside, is trained as an 18C (Special Forces Engineer Sergeant) and then later, as an Assistant Operations and Intelligence Sergeant (18F). Vargas also spent several years as a Special Forces Warrant Officer (180A), which means he literally had a job where he was expected to be able to set up a guerilla force, train them, equip them, organise the building of a base around a village or two, plan a campaign and execute it. So it's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility that Vargas' specialist skill set would allow him to set up an organisation around paramilitary supply that made him crucial to the Sinaloa cartel in ways beyond just direct action and unconventional warfare missions. It's just his personality that would make him less likely to want to focus his own time on something like this, though he might perform exceptionally well for a short period of time at finding qualified people and ordering them around to organise the nucleus.
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02-09-2018, 09:55 AM | #84 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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I know a few tough guys who play these sports, but not well enough to get a sense of how many know about the problems with their kit. On one hand these sicarios would be used to planning to kill everyone they see, but on the other hand their instincts come from modern combat, prison shankings, and leg breakings where big cojones are worth more than fancy kit. I would expect that some of the older smarter ones have figured out some of the problems with each other's armour and filed them away for later use, but most of them are probably busy murdering people, taking meth, and fornicating. Some of the lower-end armourers in eastern Europe are really good at bling.
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02-09-2018, 10:12 AM | #85 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Their Mexican partners were already importing cars and had established a network of car dealerships, which meant having to service the several thousand cars they had sold. Fairly massive investments had already been made and I don't consider it implausible that a senior Mexican engineer or ten could have been hired to set up the factory and everything related to that. If Carlos (do you want to give him the rest of his name, as his intellectual father, or should I?) could have been recruited from his former employer in late 2007, early 2008, by either Grupa Salinas, Elektra or directly by the Chinese at FAW, he would have been out of a job a year or two later, when FAW decided not to build the plant. Due to the industry crisis, Carlos would have found that he could not get a job with his old firm or any other comparable job with a car factory in Mexico. And the Caballero Templarios cartel's predecessors in Michoacán could have been intimately involved in the abortive FAW plant, as at this time, La Familia Michoacána was in a similar relationship with many unions as the Mafia in the most stereotypical mafia movie. They also controlled a lot of the mining industry in Michoacán* and sold the iron ore to China, bought a lot of Chinese products for their many legal and illegal businesses and had a piece of almost every local industry, as diverse as lime growing, logging or modern manufacturing. According to research, 85% of legitimate businesses were involved in some way with La Familia Michoacána in the years until the Caballero Templarios mostly replaced them in 2010-2011. Not to mention their drug business, both unlicensed prescription medicines and crystal meth, cocaine, marijhuana, heroin and others. And their near-total capture of local government in many places, where it was simply impossible to run any kind of business without licenses and cooperation of the local cartel appointment in government. So, it makes excellent sense for Carlos (not yet further named) to have started his involvement in Mexico's Drug War by being recruited to the Caballero Templarios in 2011 or so (allowing for time where he searched for legitimate employment, found unsatisfatory work, etc.). The initial recruiter would have been someone he knew from his previous place of employment, the local cartel contact with legitimate businesses, an altogether smoother operator than Vargas. But when he went with Vargas after the fragmentation of the larger cartel, Carlos would have followed. Not that he'd have been given a choice, if he was valuable. *44% of Mexico's entire iron industry was estimated to be controlled by their more-or-less heirs, the Caballero Templarios, a couple of years later.
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02-09-2018, 10:30 AM | #86 | ||
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Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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02-09-2018, 01:06 PM | #87 | |||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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He's been staying hidden and on the move in Mexico, protected by powerful cartels as a leader of enforcers, until he became an independent operator and eventually settled down on frontier territory ceded to him by Sinaloa. And this might turn out to be a bad idea, as we don't know what JTF Onyx Rain will decide to do if he rejects their 'generous' offer of conditional ammesty. Quote:
Of course, I expect that when Vargas and his Knight Templars put on the unlicensed, Mexican, non-union equivalent of such games, there may be less pageantry and even less safety; but they could probably put on more pyrotechnics, provide significantly more cocaine, methamphetamine, champagne, tequila and other party favours to participants, not to mention covering up a significantly higher number of deaths... accidental or otherwise. Quote:
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So all of them would have what amounts to basic military training, for a period which is almost comparable to typical soldiers in many militaries. A US infantryman will usually have 14-27 weeks of combined BCT and AIT, for example, unless he has a very specific and technical MOS. The full-time sicarios for the La Famila Michoacán and then later Caballero Templarios will have had longer training than an infantryman (11B) in the US Army for the past decade, at least, though the training will be in slightly different subjects, probably less professional and disciplined and certainly with less access to advanced military hardware for training purposes (though small arms and maybe a coupe of hundred rounds per recruit a week would be provided). Not to mention that Vargas has always subjected his men to stricter standards, having enough authority for the past six or seven years to ensure that all of his sicarios have a full six month course of basic training, with better trainers than the norm and more ordnance to play with. And being a part of his personal force means continual professional development, with a 20 hours of week commitment to ongoing training. So, I'm using sicario to refer to the full-time soldiers of the cartel, not just someone who sees himself as a criminal, carries a weapon and makes his money from some aspect of the drug trade. It's a fairly senior position, above any individual personally involved in retail drug dealing, street-level territorial disputes, the regular intimidation and beatings involved in extortion or even guarding most of the less important stashes, warehouses, labs or cover businesses. Gang members, thugs or security guards for the cartels may aspire to become sicarios (or soldiers, if you prefer that term), but usually only those who have committed murders for their bosses and impressed them with their skill or ruthlessness are considered. And they still have to pass a selection process and then make it through the tough training camp. Caballero Templarios selection in the real world, at a period before Vargas became an independent warlord, used to involve multiple murders and mutilations, the butchery of the bodies and cooking them. The witness would not admit in court whether he ate of the food. Only those who could murder, butcher and cook several people without hesitation or visible emotion passed the selection. Failures were sometimes killed as examples to others, to encourage future prospects to exercise better slef-control, but most were just returned to their previous duties as guards, extorters or members of gangs doing the bidding of the cartel. Quote:
Any suggestions for websites other than Armstreet?
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 02-09-2018 at 01:26 PM. |
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02-09-2018, 05:57 PM | #88 | |||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Vargas' team of developers are trying to use commercially known steel alloys and/or a treatment for hardening steel (flash bainite) to make a suit of full plate, probably backed with ballistic fabric and possibly strengthened with modern ballistic composites where it won't show, that looks awesome and provides protection against rifle rounds at least equal to military body armour. I'm sure that a material enginner, material scientist or a metallurist would be useful in the design process. Would one be necessary, however? What is it about running a workshop that machines high quality steel parts for plate armour, somehow attaches them together and uses machinery developed by others to harden the steel alloys, that a mechanical engineer cannot do? In GURPS terms, what skills, specialities and familiarities that a mechanical engineer won't have are required? As was discussed earlier, an ideal design team would also have someone who really understands historical body armour, probably an armourer who makes armour for re-enactors. A really good machinist-fabricator would also be a necessity. One or more of the three should also be good at research (Computer Operation, Research (vital)) and that person or one of the other should be good at making professional contacts and communicating their requirements clearly to subcontractors (some of Administration (vital), Area Knowledge, Merchant (vital) or Writing), without either making anyone too suspicious or giving away information that could harm their boss (Acting, Diplomacy or Fast-Talk). What other skill sets are absolutely necessary? Quote:
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Which means that additive manufacturing will be useful, at most, in something like making a thin inner layer of metal attached to all the pieces of stronger alloys made seperately, making a neat one-piece breastplate out of multiple smaller pieces made out of really strong materials. Unless there is some other, better way to attach them to each other, in which case additive manufacturing will have no applications in this project. Out of interest, what would be the ballpark price for a 3D printer or equivalent which could 'print' steel and titanium alloys, large enough to make a breastplate? Tens of thousands of dollars (bought as a plaything, even if it ultimately didn't prove useful for the final product), hundreds of thousands of dollars (probably not bought unless it has very clear utility for something they are doing) or millions (not bought, at all)?
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02-09-2018, 06:38 PM | #89 | ||||
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
I will do my best to answer the earlier question in a later response. Note, I do not pretend to know how to equate the skillsets I see, into Gurps terms.
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02-09-2018, 06:39 PM | #90 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Papa Renteria: "Carlos Felipe Renteria Lemus." Padre: "What do you ask of God's Church for Carlos Felipe Renteria Lemus?" Mama Renteria (née Lemus): "Baptism." His mother may address him with full name when he misbehaved and someone particularly devout may use his saint's name along with his first name, calling him 'Carlos Felipe', but it would be unusual to refer to him in any secular setting as something longer than 'Carlos Renteria' (First name + Surname), except on the most official of paperwork. His friends have called him 'Caló' so long it's no longer an ironic nickname, just the name he is used to. Quote:
Not to mention having responsibility for maintaining their fleet of vehicles, which will be 200+ at any one time and there will be rapid turn-over, as leaving them behind, selling them off or having them be destroyed or compromised will be all too common. He'll have subordinates that actually do most of the work, of course. They have a fleet manager ('Dio' Melchor), who used to do the same for a fair-sized logistics company, and they have a chief mechanic (Lizandro Acosta) who used to run a regional Policia Federal maintainence yard. Still, Caló Renteria is the one who sets up the production facilities, analyses performance, improves workflow, does quality assurance and, when necessary, can run design, research and development work. I imagine that who is in charge of 'Project Black Knight' will be determined by who Vargas likes best; Caló Renteria, the hypothetical armourer from the Ukraine or the machinist-fabricator from Texas. One aspect of this is who he believes understands his requirements best, has the most passion for the project and is most congenial to Vargas' personality. Another, however, would be which of the three seems best at assimilating data from outside their original fields and thus the best person to have a complete picture. Also, he'll put someone assertive in charge, leaving anyone with a more retiring personality, even if that is clearly the smartest person involved, to provide advice rather than direct. It's entirely possible for Caló Renteria to be an important figure in Caballero Templarios cartel operations, but not actually put in charge of the workshop at Vargas' home, but instead expected to provide all his expertise to be utilised and directed by a Ukrainian blacksmith/reenactor with no formal degree, whose passion for the project made him the new project manager when he took up residence. Since the project would be small, compared to the operations of the CT cartel as a whole, it might be that the three people combining their talents could nevertheless find ways to work well together despite the odd 'command structure'. After all, if the Ukrainian armourer is smart and really wants the project to move forward*, he'll just 'assign' the parts of the project having to do with administration to Caló, without trying to tell him how to do them. *Part of his pay is getting to make his own armour with all the nice machinery, tools and materials he assembles for the project, as long as they don't look as ornate as the one Vargas eventually gets.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 02-09-2018 at 06:43 PM. |
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cutting-edge armor design, hema, jade serenity, pyramid #3/85, sca |
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