[LT] A Question of Comparative Weapon Traits

[Landwalker]

Lately, I've been absentmindedly perusing Low-Tech, and came across a question that I hadn't really bothered to consider before regarding the differences between certain weapons. In this particular instance, the question is largely one of Polearm weapons versus Two-Handed Axe/Mace ("THAM") weapons.

Even more specifically, I'm a bit confused about the Long Axe. Here we have a sw+3 cut weapon, with Reach 1, 2* and Parry 0U. It weighs 6 pounds, and has MinST 11‡, which means that it becomes Unready after each attack.

Then, I turn a page backwards and see some polearms. In particular, I see a Dueling Halberd. In the Dueling Halberd, we have a weapon that deals sw+4 cut (+1 better than a Long Axe), in addition to its other attack options, with reach 1, 2*, Parry 0U on swung attacks, a weight of 10 pounds (that's 67% heavier than a Long Axe), and MinST 12†—a Dueling Halberd requires two hands to wield, but does not become Unready even after a swing.

We have weapons of comparable GURPS-length (although the Wikipedia pegs a combat-worthy Dane Axe at up to 4 feet in length, which I would suspect is a fair bit shorter in absolute terms than a dueling halberd, and even the ceremonial 5½ feet might fall short of the polearm), both unbalanced enough to be unable to parry after an attack. Yet weapon that is heavier (by 67%!) and requires greater ST to wield at all doesn't become unreadied after an attack, while the lighter, more "wieldable" weapon suffer this brutal penalty.

So, simply asked: Why?

[gilbertocarlos]

It is garbage from previous editions that wasn't changed in the 4th Basic Set, and was copied to Low Tech.

In my games, two handed axe and polearm are only one skill, and all weapons of that skill do Sw+5 cr, Sw+4 cut, Sw+3 imp and/or Thr+3 imp.

Also, I abolished Attack one turn, ready one turn weapons, except for really huge unbalanced weapons that have another +1 on top of the damage.

[vierasmarius]

I'm with Gilberto on this. I'd be in favor of scrapping the double-dagger notation all together in place of higher Min ST and more nuanced consequences for wielding an over-sized weapon. This could include a penalty to use, offset by spending a turn to Ready, or something similar that achieves the goal of the existing rule without being so ham-fisted about it.

[Flyndaran]

That would be making pole arms too useful for one on one fighting, when they weren't. They were best in formation.
That's why dueling pole arms were cut so short.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

It is garbage from previous editions that wasn't changed in the 4th Basic Set, and was copied to Low Tech.

The Long Axe didn't exist before Low-Tech. If it really is listed there as being Unready after an attack, that's a puzzling decision that goes against what I recall playtesters saying.

I've used it in games without any such rule and it has not proved unbalancing in the least.

[Ji ji]

If you don't want to tweak rules with regard to polearm/TH axe issues, you can use LT2 long axe. That is, a simple axe with longer handle; using those rules, it doesn't become unready.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That would be making pole arms too useful for one on one fighting, when they weren't. They were best in formation.
That's why dueling pole arms were cut so short.

All my polearms are the dueling ones. IF the player want a reach 2, 3 polerarm, then I allow it, but in my game it will be a long polearm.

Originally Posted by Icelander

The Long Axe didn't exist before Low-Tech. If it really is listed there as being Unready after an attack, that's a puzzling decision that goes against what I recall playtesters saying.

I've used it in games without any such rule and it has not proved unbalancing in the least.

It's the Great Axe with +1 damage. In reality it was a very good fighting weapon, like a "dueling" halberd that could only cut.
In other words, the damage is correct, but it shouldn't need one turn readying it.


Also:

Originally Posted by Ji ji

If you don't want to tweak rules with regard to polearm/TH axe issues, you can use LT2 long axe. That is, a simple axe with longer handle; using those rules, it doesn't become unready.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Landwalker

So, simply asked: Why?

2H Axe-Mace is a nigh-fantasy combat style. Not to say people didn't try to use some of the things under it in combat, it's just not a really good option most of the time. GURPS is not interested in game balance between weapon categories, and doesn't try to tweak them.

Out of the items under 2H axe mace, a regular axe wielded 2h is realistic, and lo, it's stats are sane. Same with the round mace and the mace and throwing axe - when wielded 2H, they have perfectly good stats. Stupid weapons (The Gada is a training weapon, the Great Axe never existed outside of fantasy art, the farming Scythe was never used in war, the Long Axe shouldn't be used with this skill) have stupid stats.

The only three weapons that are on that list that have a double-dagger and that I feel aren't on there specifically for fantasy gamers are the maul, the tetsubo, and the warhammer. The Maul and the Tetsubo specifically were never particularly popular weapons but are the kind of thing that people keep toying with because the appeal of nailing someone with a Big Heavy Object is pretty elemental in humans, and the Warhammer is a specialized two-handed pick for cracking open knights after someone's unhorsed them.

Long Axes should have a second line under the Polearm skill from how I understood they were used, as they were not used like mauls, gadas, and the like. They were, from my admittedly non-expert research, used like polearms as they were a kind of polearm. Developed separately from the more southern polearm traditions, but convergant evolution in weapons is pretty dang common.

Doing less damage than the heavier dueling halberd is definitely correct.
The more comparable weapon is the dueling glaive, which is the same weight, does less when wielded in the more agile but less powerful Polearm style, and incidentally has a spiky thing on the end.

A Long Axe wielded with Polearm skill should be treated as a Dueling Glaive without the thrust damage line. Including the MinST of 9 and everything. It's $5 cheaper and doesn't have a spearpoint. *shrug*

[Bruno]

In my DF game, I actually give the Great Axe another +1 on top of the Low Tech boost to damage (Swing +5) - it's such a bad weapon to take and I'm a bit sentimental about them, so I do try to encourage people to take them. Still no bites though.

I should probably boost Maul, Tetsubo, and Gada damage as well since I've done that - not that I think that anyone will take them either.

Another idea would be to instead reduce the MinST on double-dagger weapons, to make it easier to get PCs who can wield them.

Aside from that, I have a house-rule that double-dagger weapons can be re-readied as a special kind of Rapid Strike option; make a weapon-skill -6 roll to "fast ready" the weapon, any attack during the turn is at -6 as if with a regular rapid strike due to the weapon still not being fully in-line. You can spend FP to halve the two penalties, just like with Flurry of Blows (one FP per roll), and I would totally allow Weapon Master and TbaM to also halve the penalties (not stacking with each other though!)

Sufficiently skilled Weapon Masters could strike twice per turn, suffering the penalties as if making a 4 attack Rapid Strike and having to make two fast ready rolls.

The whole idea is by parallel with the fast firing bows rules.

[Flyndaran]

Ancient thread, but it seems the most pertinent to my question.
I'm trying to give my ST 20 character an axe like weapon with R 2.

The Dueling Glaive used one handed by someone 18+ St does only SW+1 damage. That's less than the much shorter smaller one handed axe of SW+2.

Using the weapon design section of LTC 2 adding length to the regular axe gives SW+3 and no need to have exceptional strength.

Any suggestions?