Helms, Greaves and Gauntlets...

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Philomath

My boots are something like 5 pounds (edit: 80 oz according to Danner's site -- Flashpoint boots) and they don't even have steel reinforcement.

Just to make sure, you do understand that 80 oz is 5 pounds, right? *grin*


BTW, you also have to keep in mind that apparel and armor are going to have noticeably different weights for differently sized people. Even if GURPS equipment doesn't take that into account.

The weight of equipment for a typical medieval/renaissance man who measured 5'2" to 5'8" is going to be different from the weight of equipment for a typical modern man who measures 5'8" to 6'2".

Not to mention the weight difference between a boot made for my modern size 12(46) foot vs. a boot made for someone's medieval size 8(41) foot.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Where did you get the stats for the cloth armor? Is this a 20 layer jack? In my own calculations 10 layer jack is 7lbs... At 14lbs, i could assume its a 30 layer jack torso armor and 10 layer jack everywhere else.

If memory serves me it was from an article from Pyramid about historical weight of armor, weight is for torso PLUS sleeves PLUS leggings. 7 lbs is what I have fro winter clothing, I'm considering this quilted armor, though I'm not sure what variety, I'm not an expert at this at all.
You may have a point though, it's hard to imagine something like cloth armor wich is built for military purposes to have twice the weight of winter clothing and as much DR...

from this link wouldnt it be better to subdivide DR between cut/cr/imp+pi.

It would be DR 1/3/1 torso and DR 0/2/0 limbs in my calculations

I'm only going to adress weight chances, there's enough foreign crunch added that I'm not willing to add extra rules. While I do believe you have a point about this, and not just this armor but a lot of armor... I'm keeping simple on this one.

Originally Posted by ArmoredSaint

I think your greaves & sabatons are still too heavy, but at least you've done away with the official GURPS weight of 7(!!) pounds for sabatons...

What would be an appropriate weight? (though I'm guessing you'll post this latter in your "nook", hehe)

Originally Posted by Philomath

My boots are something like 5 pounds (edit: 80 oz according to Danner's site -- Flashpoint boots) and they don't even have steel reinforcement.

A single modern example is hard to use as reference, my gaucho boots weigh around 4 lbs at most and they're really hard leather. Most women's boots would actually qualify as shoes, since they are really supple compared to hard/thick leather.
Build has a lot to do with it, gaucho boots for instance are tight fit (like jokeys) while lots of boots are loose around the shin, that's added surface (more leather, more weigh) and they have thin, yet very hard leather soles, wich weigh much less than thick rubber soles we ordinarily see.
But again, you guys are right... 2 lbs for a pair of DR 2 boots is way underweigh.

As for reinforced leather, 4-4.5 lbs seems reasonable, since you don't need much to push hard leather boots into DR 3...

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

The weight of equipment for a typical medieval/renaissance man who measured 5'2" to 5'8" is going to be different from the weight of equipment for a typical modern man who measures 5'8" to 6'2".

Not to mention the weight difference between a boot made for my modern size 12(46) foot vs. a boot made for someone's medieval size 8(41) foot.

Excelent point! That's usually overlooked in all the discussions I've been in. Even a small reducement in volume is going to have a (comparatively) big effect on weight.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

See something like these Engineer Boots to see what I mean.

What are shanks? They're steel, wouldn't that'd make them reinforced and DR 3 (at least)? And they weigh only 4 lbs. That's a good justification for 4 lbs for reinforced leather (although the shins seem rather ordinary leather).

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

the Charburg #13 consists of [...] gauntlets(2.07lbs)

A 15th century german gothic [...] gauntlets(1.84lbs)

That seems to be in line with the 2 lb weight I used for gauntlets in general.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

For comparison, a 51lb Milanese harnes, 15th century has greaves that weigh 3.75 lbs. Even if we double the weight of the gothic graves, we're still left with 2lbs of weight for the sabatons. And in all likelyhood, the greaves would not be THAT heavy.

So would 5 lbs be reasonable for TL4 steel feet armor with appropriate padding/boots?

[ArmoredSaint]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

So would 5 lbs be reasonable for TL4 steel feet armor with appropriate padding/boots?

5 pounds is probably too heavy. Does your 5 pound figure presume that the greave and sabaton are in one piece?

I think sabatons, even with medieval/Renaissance shoes worn underneath, would probably weigh about the same as gauntlets.

To add to this discussion, I submit the following website, that of the private collection of Mr. Wade Allen.

http://www.allenantiques.com/Armour-All-Examples.html

I have had the pleasure of being allowed to handle and even wear many of the pieces displayed here. Many of the thickness measurements were taken at the request of myself and others at another forum.

In particular, I wish to call attention to the fact that, where weights are provided, it is noteworthy that the only breastplates in his collection which equal or approach the weight of a "standard" GURPS steel breastplate are those which are shot-proof and are often 5mm thick or more...

Some of the pieces are surprisingly thin. But remember, by the TL 4 period from which most of this collection dates, this would likely have been higher-carbon steel, heat-treated to higher level of hardness than most modern mild steel replicas. It doesn't take that much good steel to stop a sword blow, even from a powerful man. I'd like to see the GURPS rules change to reflect this reality.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by ArmoredSaint

5 pounds is probably too heavy. Does your 5 pound figure presume that the greave and sabaton are in one piece?

Does it make that much difference? What would both cases weigh?

I think sabatons, even with medieval/Renaissance shoes worn underneath, would probably weigh about the same as gauntlets.

Wait, plate feet armor (padding, plates and all) would weigh 2 lbs!? That's a bit unbelievable.
Or do you mean that the sabatons alone (no padding, no greaves) weigh 2 lbs?

Some of the pieces are surprisingly thin. But remember, by the TL 4 period from which most of this collection dates, this would likely have been higher-carbon steel, heat-treated to higher level of hardness than most modern mild steel replicas. It doesn't take that much good steel to stop a sword blow, even from a powerful man. I'd like to see the GURPS rules change to reflect this reality.

Well, the rules by themselves, for DR support this. 1mm of steel would provide DR3-4, wich is about what sollerets offer in GURPS. What's incredibly off is their weight. They'd either have to have much higher DR, or much lighter weight... wich is what I'm trying to do.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

What are shanks? They're steel, wouldn't that'd make them reinforced and DR 3 (at least)? And they weigh only 4 lbs. That's a good justification for 4 lbs for reinforced leather (although the shins seem rather ordinary leather).

Shanks are the little bits of metal in shoes which maintain the wearer's arch.
Back in the day they'd have been made out of forty-penny nails - so they only weigh 2 oz (57g) each - making that a pretty negligible part of shoes/boots' weight, they should be assumed to be present in any decent pair of shoes.

Picture of a shank before the sole is laid in.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

..
Back in the day they'd have been made out of forty-penny nails - so they only weigh 2 oz (57g) each - making that a pretty negligible part of shoes/boots' weight, they should be assumed to be present in any decent pair of shoes.
...

As someone with flat feet, I can say that finding even poor quality shoes without arches is rather difficult.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

As someone with flat feet, I can say that finding even poor quality shoes without arches is rather difficult.

Poor quality modern shoes don't have real shanks, they're simply molded to a generic standard arch.
Poor quality medieval shoes are little more than moccasins with a hard sole.

Good quality medieval shoes not only have real steel shanks, but those shanks were custom fitted individually to their wearers' arches.
Good quality fitted modern shoes are rather expensive, but there are less expensive mass produced good shoes which come in various arch and width configurations.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Shanks are the little bits of metal in shoes which maintain the wearer's arch.
Back in the day they'd have been made out of forty-penny nails - so they only weigh 2 oz (57g) each - making that a pretty negligible part of shoes/boots' weight

Even so, while you can have boots of several weights, I doubt that a pair of gaucho boots, wich are definately DR 2 (much harder than shoes' DR 1), weigh 2kg (~4lbs)... I'd check, but the scale at my folk's house is not very reliable for such small weights... maybe later this week.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Even so, while you can have boots of several weights, I doubt that a pair of gaucho boots, wich are definately DR 2 (much harder than shoes' DR 1), weigh 2kg (~4lbs)... I'd check, but the scale at my folk's house is not very reliable for such small weights... maybe later this week.

Most cowboy/gaucho boots do weigh around 4 lbs (~1¾ kg).

Boot weights on a sale site.