Flesh to Stone

[Yssa]

Flesh to Stone (Spells 27) seems like an uncharacteristically limited spell within the DFRPG world. Nearly every other spell (and DFRPG skill, for that matter) is applicable in diverse situations, but Flesh to Stone is only useful as counter to one specific spell. There aren't even any monsters who cause petrifaction (with the exception of a specialized Bone Golem [Monsters 2 10-11).

I guess it feels like it leads to a Meta-Gaming paradox. The PC wouldn't buy the spell unless they have a reasonable expectation that the GM is going to create an NPC that likes to use Flesh to Stone, and the GM isn't going to do that unless the PC has the counter spell.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Yssa

I guess it feels like it leads to a Meta-Gaming paradox. The PC wouldn't buy the spell unless they have a reasonable expectation that the GM is going to create an NPC that likes to use Flesh to Stone, and the GM isn't going to do that unless the PC has the counter spell.

Sure I would. I'd make sure that a counter spell exists in the world, but it doesn't have to be something immediately convenient for the PCs.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Yssa

Flesh to Stone

Do you mean Stone to Flesh? Flesh to Stone allows you to petrify someone or something. There are a number of uses for this, including turning an enemy into stone during combat, effectively putting somebody into suspended animation, and creating cool looking statues for your domicile.

Stone to Flesh's primary usage is to cure petrification.

Originally Posted by Yssa

There aren't even any monsters who cause petrifaction (with the exception of a specialized Bone Golem [Monsters 2 10-11).

True, but the classic fantasy monsters Cockatrice, Basilisk, and Medusas all cause petrification. Just because they aren't statted in Monsters 1 & 2 doesn't mean they aren't possible monsters to fight (all three, incidentally, are detailed in Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 3: Born of Myth & Magic; a book which is easily usable with the DFRPG without needing any real changes or translations).

Honestly, if you think it's usage is too limited then feel free to remove it from the game. Either make anti-petrification potions available (if costly), or fold the ability to cure petrification into the another spell (either as part of Flesh to Stone or probably a variant usage of Cure Disease). Or both.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Yssa

Flesh to Stone (Spells 27) seems like an uncharacteristically limited spell within the DFRPG world. Nearly every other spell (and DFRPG skill, for that matter) is applicable in diverse situations, but Flesh to Stone is only useful as counter to one specific spell.

I think you mean "Stone to Flesh", and yes, it is explicitly a "counter" to Flesh to Stone spells and powers.

If you wish, you could list the Flesh to Stone spell and powers as 'Curses' and allow them to fall under the rubric of Remove Curse and remove curse abilities (and then drop the spell). However if you go this route, think hard about whether or not you want Clerics/Holy Warriors (and anyone who learns the Exorcism skill) to be able to exorcise this Curse (Exploits pg 24).

[Dalin]

With Contingency Casting, you don't need to waste any points on the spell, especially if you don't anticipate encountering a lot of petrifying attacks. Kromm went this route with Francesco Zombani, Adventurers, p. 120, where he calls Stone to Flesh a "specialized cure."

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Dalin

With Contingency Casting, you don't need to waste any points on the spell, especially if you don't anticipate encountering a lot of petrifying attacks. Kromm went this route with Francesco Zombani, Adventurers, p. 120, where he calls Stone to Flesh a "specialized cure."

Cleric have 106 spells, so 14 points is roughly 1/8th of the list. If there are 15 or more spells you don't think you'll really ever need more than once per adventure, Contingency Casting is a good deal.



However... note... I've never seen anyone take it. Also note, StF is also a Wizard spell, however as there are a plethora of "less than useful Wizard spells", even at 21 points Wild Magic is more than worth it.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Cleric have 106 spells, so 14 points is roughly 1/8th of the list. If there are 15 or more spells you don't think you'll really ever need more than once per adventure, Contingency Casting is a good deal.

I’ve never done the math. It fits a lot of character archetypes. I like the idea of being able to pray for special miracles.

However... note... I've never seen anyone take it.

Wow! In two different current DFRPG games, there are three characters with it (two clerics and a holy warrior). And in my previous campaign, the cleric had it, so at our tables it has been nearly universal. I love the many different paths that characters can take.

[ericthered]

If you know Stone to Flesh, you learned Flesh to Stone in the process, at least most of the time. If you are constantly spamming flesh to stone, it can be useful to know how to reverse your own spell.

Its not as useful in a pure hack and slash game like the DFRPG leans, but its the main reason I'd learn the spell: so I can defeat enemies and then get them back at my leisure.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Dalin

Wow! In two different current DFRPG games, there are three characters with it (two clerics and a holy warrior). And in my previous campaign, the cleric had it, so at our tables it has been nearly universal. I love the many different paths that characters can take.

I can see Holy Warriors taking it (I haven't, but I can see the appeal). However the Players I've had who play Clerics have all "done the math" and decided that in the long run most of those 14 points would end being wasted.

Yes... even in a dungeon hack, they think "long haul" with their points. These are the same types that refuse to start play with Weapon Bond on a Character...

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I can see Holy Warriors taking it (I haven't, but I can see the appeal). However the Players I've had who play Clerics have all "done the math" and decided that in the long run most of those 14 points would end being wasted.

Yes... even in a dungeon hack, they think "long haul" with their points. These are the same types that refuse to start play with Weapon Bond on a Character...

I have yet to run a DFRPG campaign long enough for this to matter. (Though we do keep boosting the point values as we play, even if we're playing new characters, so eventually it will matter.) I suppose I am also the sort of GM who would probably allow someone to swap out an advantage that didn't seem to be pulling its weight anymore. There might need to be a quest from the High Priest (or the deity herself) to provide an in-fiction explanation, but I'd happily help a player come up with a better "clerical miracle" advantage once they were approaching mastery of the entire spellbook.

I also wonder if anything breaks if you allow contingency casters to cross domains? Might be interesting to allow for an occasional Holy Fireball or (more in-genre) a miraculous ability to Walk on Water. Especially if it doesn't seem worth the points, this might bring it up to snuff.