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Old 03-20-2006, 08:41 AM   #11
Maz
 
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

I'm glad to get this many replies as it seems others have been in doubt how to use the skill as well.

Now, would a GM ever say "roll against Observation", or wouldn't it rather be a choice by the player, if they want to "just" spot (with perception) or to Observe (with observation).


It seems to me that the most simple difinition on the two is that Perception is instantanious and Observation is for a longer duration.
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Old 03-20-2006, 09:58 AM   #12
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kure
Hi,
I thought that Observation skill work against skills like camouflage, stealth, shadowing.
And it not!!
Well, it could at times. Say you're running observation on a public place, and somebody who's passing is being shadowed; that might well end up as an Observation vs. Shadowing contest. Any time the other skill is being used to fog attempts at assessment, it could be Quick Context time.
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Old 03-20-2006, 10:41 AM   #13
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kure

I thought that Observation skill work against skills like camouflage, stealth, shadowing.
And it not!!
Observation can work that way -- it's just that it can do other things, too. Watching an area or a group for a time to determine its purpose and secrets includes noticing which bits are camouflaged, who's hiding in the shadows, etc. Normally, such skills as Camouflage, Stealth, and Shadowing go up against straight Perception because, usually, those skills are applied tactically and the "victim" (so to speak) isn't actively scanning the area for an extended period. However, a soldier, guard, spy, or detective doing nothing but watching the area has a better chance of noticing items and people that have been deliberately concealed. In effect, if his Observation skill is greater than his Per, he gets a bonus for applying trained technique.

Thus, there are effectively two distinct uses of Observation:

1. Roll against the higher of Observation or Perception in any Contest against a stealth or concealment skill such as Camouflage, Shadowing, or Stealth, and to notice Filch, Pickpocket, or Sleight of Hand attempts. This is the "tactical" use of Observation.

2. Roll against Observation (default: Per-5) to gather intelligence for later analysis with Intelligence Analysis, typically to avoid penalties for unprepared breaking and entering, military action with Strategy or Tactics, etc. This is the "strategic" use of Observation.

In essence, the uses in the first category are a "perk" for being expert at the second category.
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Old 03-20-2006, 10:58 AM   #14
kure
 
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Observation can work that way -- it's just that it can do other things, too. Watching an area or a group for a time to determine its purpose and secrets includes noticing which bits are camouflaged, who's hiding in the shadows, etc. Normally, such skills as Camouflage, Stealth, and Shadowing go up against straight Perception because, usually, those skills are applied tactically and the "victim" (so to speak) isn't actively scanning the area for an extended period. However, a soldier, guard, spy, or detective doing nothing but watching the area has a better chance of noticing items and people that have been deliberately concealed. In effect, if his Observation skill is greater than his Per, he gets a bonus for applying trained technique.

Thus, there are effectively two distinct uses of Observation:

1. Roll against the higher of Observation or Perception in any Contest against a stealth or concealment skill such as Camouflage, Shadowing, or Stealth, and to notice Filch, Pickpocket, or Sleight of Hand attempts. This is the "tactical" use of Observation.

2. Roll against Observation (default: Per-5) to gather intelligence for later analysis with Intelligence Analysis, typically to avoid penalties for unprepared breaking and entering, military action with Strategy or Tactics, etc. This is the "strategic" use of Observation.

In essence, the uses in the first category are a "perk" for being expert at the second category.
Thanks twice. :o) First for clarification, and
Second that I am not as dumb :o)
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Old 03-22-2006, 04:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gudiomen
An example....

Perception:
There's a camp in the end of the valey, between the trees. There are about 20 men and 25 horses. The men are wearing scale armor, and look like it's quite heavy. They are wearing swords and bows, for the most part, some are using spears, and there are shields straped on the horses gears. There are half a dozen tents, and a fire pit in the middle.

Observation:
By the position of the camp, it looks as thought they didn't want to limit their vision in the valley, camping in the entrance probably waiting for something, or otherwise wary of something. The men seem to make an effort to support their armor, yet they do not take it off. It seems that they are tired after many days ride and, try to keep as alert as they can. The number of horses indicates that there are at least half a dozen individuals that are not in sight. They are well armed, and looks like gear apropriate for soldiers, mercenaries or other professional force. The fire pit is billowing a lot of smoke, they probably gathered green or weat wood, wich would indicate that they don't want to venture very far from camp to get good kindling. By the way they patrol, it seems that theyr leader, or whoever they want to protect is in the third tent from the right.
Well put. To me the simplest way to describe the difference is in terms of time. Perception is anything you can sense in an instant, Observation is detecting patterns over time. That might be an oversimplification, but that's my basic dividing line.

Also, I never ask players to roll versus Observation but I almost always ask, "What is your Observation skill?" and then roll in secret. Asking this question regardless of the skill helps the players understand what each skill is used for and can point out deficiencies in their skill set. The only time I don't ask this question is when I don't want to tip the player off - like rolling to see someone sneaking past.
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Old 03-22-2006, 04:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by damedley

Also, I never ask players to roll versus Observation but I almost always ask, "What is your Observation skill?" and then roll in secret.
I almost never roll anything in secret these days. If a player can't be trusted to firewall player/character info, I don't want the player, ergo no problem.
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Old 03-22-2006, 07:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

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Originally Posted by zogo
I almost never roll anything in secret these days. If a player can't be trusted to firewall player/character info, I don't want the player, ergo no problem.
It's not just a question of firewalling the information zogo, sometimes it's more enjoyable for the player not to know. Personally the unexpected surprises of my false assumptions are very entertaining, so rolling in secret is not a trust issue, so much as it's a "wow, I didn't expect that" and it totaly ruins the drama of that weapon snapping at the crucial moment because of that critical failure in the forge.
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Old 03-22-2006, 07:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

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Originally Posted by Gudiomen
It's not just a question of firewalling the information zogo, sometimes it's more enjoyable for the player not to know.
It's also enjoyable to have the irony of the situation where the player knows how wrong the character is.

My players love telling the others untrue things that their characters believe are true.

It's a different playstyle, but it hardly destroys the whole gaming experience if the players always know when the have failed a roll.

And it doesn't "ruin" the drama of failures with a later impact, it enchances them. The player doesn't know when the forged item will give out, but that it will. The character, not knowing, uses the item. voila tension.
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Old 03-22-2006, 07:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gudiomen
It's not just a question of firewalling the information zogo, sometimes it's more enjoyable for the player not to know. Personally the unexpected surprises of my false assumptions are very entertaining, so rolling in secret is not a trust issue, so much as it's a "wow, I didn't expect that" and it totaly ruins the drama of that weapon snapping at the crucial moment because of that critical failure in the forge.
Ah, but then you'd be discounting the enjoyment the GM gets from the player squirming after making that roll.

GM: A critical failure in you observation roll you say? That's ok, things were pretty obvious anyway...
By the position of the camp, it looks as thought they camped as soon as they entered the valley. The men seem to be tired of wearing their armor and will likely soon take it off. The number of horses indicates that they are pretty well off since they have remounts. They are lightly armed, and looks like some minor nobles personal amateur force. The fire pit is billowing a lot of smoke, they are probably signalling to invite who wants to join them for dinner. By the way they patrol, it seems that their leader, or whoever they want to protect is in the second tent from the right.

(Then sit back and enjoy the PC interaction.)
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Old 03-23-2006, 05:41 AM   #20
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Default Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?

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Originally Posted by Chorpa
Maybe followed up by a succesful Body Language roll: You notice he is nervously guarding the suitcase.
I disagree here : Body Language is combat-oriented. Psychology is far more meaningful to notice a person's mental state.
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