Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I train in a sport consisting of short, very intense bursts of activity. You're wrong. The very fit people still do better.

I train for sports too, Fencing to be precise, and I'll tell you at the end of a bout I'm more tired than I am from a 400m run.

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Now applying Very Fit to Extra Effort clearly wasn't in the design intent, according to Kromm. But for those of us who think it might be cool to have that option available in their campaigns, the question becomes "what should the cost be?".

I think your inclination to purchase extra FP, as you posted above, will give the fairest costs. The idea of extra effort in combat may not be cinematic, but the extra effort effects allowed in GURPS are quite powerful in realistic settings, and care should therefore be taken with allowing characters such easy access to them.

Per the guidelines in GURPS Powers under Energy Reserves, its probably not unreasonable to add on a -10% limitation to FP that can only be used to fuel extra effort.

[Mehmet]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Re: Extra Effort in combat, I've never really understood why some people see it as cinematic. You can watch tape of people in fights and see the moments when they "turn it up" out of desperation, killing instinct, genuine fear for their lives, or what-have-you. The last-minute flurry just before the bell, the desperate attempts to ward off harm, they're nothing that anyone needs to put a "Manga" tag on. I've seen them, live, I know that stuff is real. I also know from experience (and other people's may tell them different), that a well conditioned person's main advantage over a less-conditioned one is his or her ability to sustain that kind of output for longer without "gasing out".

Now applying Very Fit to Extra Effort clearly wasn't in the design intent, according to Kromm. But for those of us who think it might be cool to have that option available in their campaigns, the question becomes "what should the cost be?".

I don't think it is in any way cinematic - I find it one of the most realistic (or reality-like, it may not be realistic, I actually don't care) parts of the game. But it is a bit powerful. And when you ask what would be the price of actually, mathematically halving FP costs, I suggest (I have to runi I'd speculate otherwise) writing down the possibilities (feverish defense and rapid strike each round for instance, or whatever) and compare with talents or enhanced defenses or combat reflexes and similar traits as per "creating new advantages guidelines."

Cheers...

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Kromm

-- and extra effort in combat is heroic silliness, not realism. Its FP cost was set at 1 FP with the full knowledge that no effects that halve FP costs would work on it. Realistic FP costs for a fight are the ones assessed at the end.

Wow! Hold your horses there. Ok, I understand the logic behind negating fatigue discounts for Very Fit, and I'm pretty much convinced. My natural instinct and experience in GURPS did push me in that direction. So as far as that goes, the issue is settled with me.

However... saying that extra efforts is "heroic sillyness" is a jab at my campaign. We've allways assumed, based on real life comparisons, that "feverish defenses" were pretty realistic, and the perfect way to model how an inexperienced fighter tires desperately fighting while an experienced one paces himself. There are several combat pecuilarities that cannot be simulated without this. Kromm, could you develop your argument on that point a bit? Why are feverish defenses and their cousins "heroic sillyness"?

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

However... saying that extra efforts is "heroic sillyness" is a jab at my campaign. We've allways assumed, based on real life comparisons, that "feverish defenses" were pretty realistic, and the perfect way to model how an inexperienced fighter tires desperately fighting while an experienced one paces himself. There are several combat pecuilarities that cannot be simulated without this. Kromm, could you develop your argument on that point a bit? Why are feverish defenses and their cousins "heroic sillyness"?

As written, Feverish Defenses is the most unrealistic bit of Extra Effort. How in the world can you get +7 to Dodge by All-out-Defending, Retreating and using Feverish Defense???

Yeah, your character looks t3h k3wl.

[Oggsmash]

As written, Feverish Defenses is the most unrealistic bit of Extra Effort. How in the world can you get +7 to Dodge by All-out-Defending, Retreating and using Feverish Defense???

I disagree 100%, if you have ever been in the ring with a person who absolutely puts safety of his grill above winning the fight he will be damn near impossible to hit.

As for the very fit debate, Personally my boxing coach had a saying, if you are in great shape you can go 80% 10 rounds, 90% for 3 rounds and 100% for 45-60 seconds. Once you start to get out of a "relaxed" combat mode you burn glycogen and "gas" easier. After 8 years in intense combat sports (BJJ, MT, Boxing and 9 MMA fights in the ring) Being very fit means you go a little harder during extra effort and only tire out a little slower, but Recover MUCH faster during resbits. When I used to train in Va Beach (BJJ + MMA)we would have SEALs come in. Guys in fantastic shape. They gassed badly too when struggling to escape bad positions or when they tried to "push" the pace too much. Difference was the Seal is just like new after a 45 second break whereas the desk jockey is seeing spots.


A really good fighter knows when to use extra effort and when to ding on his opponent. To represent a good "pressure" fighter give em very fit, but more importantly more FP.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

However... saying that extra efforts is "heroic sillyness" is a jab at my campaign.

It wasn't a jab, just an explanation of where the writers were coming from -- and, FWIW, a big part of combat in my campaign, too.

We've allways assumed, based on real life comparisons, that "feverish defenses" were pretty realistic, and the perfect way to model how an inexperienced fighter tires desperately fighting while an experienced one paces himself.

Not really. Consider: You're Joe Average. You fight Mr. Experienced for 10 seconds -- hardly impossible in reality. You last this long by doing nothing but a dodge at 8, +3 for a retreat, +2 for All-Out Defense, and another +2 for Feverish Defense, for a 15 to counteract his Deceptive Attacks and Feints. You use up 10 FP in the process. You're Joe Average, so you have 10 FP. You then pass out. How is that realistic?

Or consider: You're desperately trying to get through a door. Your initial kicks and shoulder blocks don't budge it. So you go for Mighty Blows. After a mere 10 seconds of hitting the door, you collapse in exhaustion, unconscious.

This stuff isn't realistic and wasn't meant to be. It's purely cinematic, designed for those "more all-out than All-Out" moments that you see in the movies. The FP cost serves the same purpose as the character-point cost for Influencing Success Rolls (p. B347): a control on overuse of the rule to the point where it's no longer dramatic or heroic, just munchkin. It has zero connection to real-world energy depletion. In the real world, a human can't burn energy fast enough to pass out in 10 seconds! That requires a choke or something.

There are several combat pecuilarities that cannot be simulated without this. Kromm, could you develop your argument on that point a bit? Why are feverish defenses and their cousins "heroic sillyness"?

See above. To simulate quasi-realistic combat fatigue, enforce lulls between, say, 10-second flurries, and assess a FP cost after each flurry as if it were a battle in its own right. But having people drop in 10 seconds is simply wrong.

[Oggsmash]

I train in a sport consisting of short, very intense bursts of activity. You're wrong. The very fit people still do better.

I dont know what the sport is, but if their skill level is high they are also probably relaxed better during the execution of said sport. Being relaxed and "driving" along at 80 percent is what getting to very fit is for those point assessed at the end of a hot/encumbered combat, going all out all the time has limits. Going to your personal limit has a tiring effect on your body no matter your condition. IE a person say sparring with you could be pushing you to your limits (you have to use extra effort to keep up or defend) whereas their skill level is such they are operating at a very comfortable pace for them because their skill set is better. Yes they may be in better shape as well, but this will be reflected by very fit AND more fp so that when they have to push they can, but against a more skilled opponent who makes THEM push hard to keep up they will still tire out first even if they are in better condition than said opponent.

[Ciaran]

I think Extra FP is probably the best solution. Maybe an Energy Reserve with the limitation "only for Extra Effort". If we can simply change the rate at which we lose 1fp per "combat" with Very Fit, then we should keep it for our fighter characters, if not drop it to Fit and spend the difference on HT or FP.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Oggsmash

I dont know what the sport is, but if their skill level is high they are also probably relaxed better during the execution of said sport. Being relaxed and "driving" along at 80 percent is what getting to very fit is for those point assessed at the end of a hot/encumbered combat, going all out all the time has limits. Going to your personal limit has a tiring effect on your body no matter your condition. IE a person say sparring with you could be pushing you to your limits (you have to use extra effort to keep up or defend) whereas their skill level is such they are operating at a very comfortable pace for them because their skill set is better. Yes they may be in better shape as well, but this will be reflected by very fit AND more fp so that when they have to push they can, but against a more skilled opponent who makes THEM push hard to keep up they will still tire out first even if they are in better condition than said opponent.

Muay Thai was the sport I was referring to. Part of the way I'm used to training is doing "sprint intervals" on the pads (something you'rre probably pretty familiar with). So we're not talking sparring situations here, just the conditioning drills. Even experienced martial artists generally have a hard time doing those intervals more than a couple of times until their conditioning level gets up there.

What Kromm brings up about Extra Effort is valid: I'd enforce Will rolls to let a person push themselves to the point of passing out. But I've seen people do it... stupid people, yeah.