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Old 09-20-2018, 09:11 PM   #1
JohnPaulB
 
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Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Portland, Maine
Default Illusion in Shadow Hex

When an invisible/shadowed figure is attacked (even by a figure who knows where it is), the attack is at -6 DX because you can’t see it. An attack into a hex where you hope an invisible/shadowed figure is has the same -6 DX. The same goes for casting of spells and attempts to miss an invisible figure. WIZARDS page 9

A philosophical question:
a) Fighter Joe is in a Shadow Hex and enemy Sam is adjacent. Both know they are there. Sam can’t see in and swings at -6DX. Joe can’t see anything and swings at -6DX.

b) Wizard Rick has a Shadow Hex 5 hexes away. Rick has an illusion of a fighter in the Shadow Hex. Enemy Sam is adjacent to the Shadow Hex ready to attack the “fighter”. Normally, the fighter would be at -6DX because it couldn’t see anything.

A wizard can see through the eyes of the summoned beings, images, or illusions brought by his Creation spells. WIZARDS page 15
A wizard can see through its Illusion’s Eyes. So seeing through the Illusion’s eyes in this case would see blackness.

However, as a wizard can do other things while his illusion fights on its own; the wizard obviously can see on his own. Now at this moment, Wizard Rick is watching the enemy fighter, so he can “see” him. Would the Illusion in the Shadow Hex still be at -6DX?
Could it be at -4DX or -3DX or even no penalty?
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:47 PM   #2
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Illusion in Shadow Hex

My two copper pieces:

I think it's pretty clear that the rules say all attacks at a target unseen by the attacker are at -6. The wizard seeing though the illusion's eyes sees nothing because the illusion is in shadow. The advantage an illusion or creation has from being controlled by a wizard who can see foes it can't, is to know which hexes to target. But that information (where to attack) is also given by being adjacent.

(If the idea of a reduced penalty in that situation feels compelling, though, it seems like a logical enough house rule to me.)
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:59 AM   #3
platimus
 
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Default Re: Illusion in Shadow Hex

Here's my philosophical 2-pesos (worth less than 2-cents):

I would reiterate Skarg's comment:
"The wizard seeing though the illusion's eyes sees nothing because the illusion is in shadow. The advantage an illusion or creation has from being controlled by a wizard who can see foes it can't, is to know which hexes to target. But that information (where to attack) is also given by being adjacent."

As long as the illusion is in the shadow hex it is unseen. The illusion can do nothing to the adjacent figure because the adjacent figure can't see it. There is no visual information to make Sam believe he is being attacked.

Because illusions incorporate audible and visual components (smell too if that matters), Sam can hear (or smell) something in the shadow hex and attack into it at -6 DX.

Once Sam has attacked into the shadow hex containing the illusion, it shows that Sam has a strong belief that there is something actually in there. At that point, I would allow the illusion to attack Sam at -6 DX if it remains in the shadow hex. My reasoning for the -6 DX penalty isn't that the illusion can't see Sam. The reason (in my mind) is that Sam can't see the illusion, so it has less hold on Sam's mind. Also, it supports the belief of an unwitting player that the threat is real and not illusion.

Most of the time, I think a player controlling the illusion would have it exit the shadow and attack. It's the most effective use of the illusion if the controlling player's motive is to kill Sam. If the controlling player just wanted to keep Sam occupied, he'd be wise to leave it in the shadow until Sam turned his attention elsewhere.

As a GM controlling the illusion, I'd ask myself if the caster (if present) would want to keep Sam occupied or kill Sam. This may depend on the situation and whether or not the caster is smart enough to think so strategically. So, if I thought it would be better strategically to leave the illusion in the hex, I'd make a 3/IQ check for the caster to see if he thought this as well.

Last edited by platimus; 09-21-2018 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:31 AM   #4
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Illusion in Shadow Hex

This is a case where I would follow the letter of the law and hope to skate past this bizarre situation quickly before anyone involved noticed its counter-intuitive elements. Also, if you relax the rules in this case you would create an opening for someone to engineer a strategy where they get to spend a couple of ST points to create an unhitable but highly effective illusionary myrmidon. I don't mind if there is a spell to that effect somewhere in the lists, but I wouldn't want to create such an unbalanced thing through a ruling that actually breaks a known rule.
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:39 PM   #5
platimus
 
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Default Re: Illusion in Shadow Hex

I see nothing wrong with letting a wizard cast an illusion and then cast a shadow on its hex. Nor do I see anything wrong with a wizard commanding his illusion to enter a shadow. I think the letter of the law IS how it should be handled. I was mistaken about NOT letting the illusion attack first.

If you handle according to the letter of the law, it maintains the illusion that "the illusion" is real. Unknowing players get no hint that it can be disbelieved. My explanation of why the illusion would attack at -6 DX is the explanation I'd give to the wizard-player that questions it. But it also makes sense in my mind.
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Old 09-22-2018, 03:30 PM   #6
BrotherBill
 
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Default Re: Illusion in Shadow Hex

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Here's my philosophical 2-pesos (worth less than 2-cents):

The illusion can do nothing to the adjacent figure because the adjacent figure can't see it. There is no visual information to make Sam believe he is being attacked.
So if I close my eyes an illusion cannot hurt me?
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:13 PM   #7
platimus
 
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Default Re: Illusion in Shadow Hex

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherBill View Post
So if I close my eyes an illusion cannot hurt me?
Read the post right above yours...where I admit that was wrong :)
Quote:
I was mistaken about NOT letting the illusion attack first.
However, one could argue that you are attempting to disbelieve the illusion by closing your eyes. If you pass the test, then no, the illusion cannot hurt you. :)

Last edited by platimus; 09-22-2018 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:23 PM   #8
BrotherBill
 
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Default Re: Illusion in Shadow Hex

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Read the post right above yours...where I admit that was wrong :)
Sorry, missed that.
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