Clarification on Nuisance Effect

[sonic232]

I've seen a couple threads misusing this limitation, so I want to get this out there so I don't drive myself crazy:

Viable powers CANNOT be Nuisance Effects. They must physically inconvenience YOU, make YOU obvious (completely negating stealth) or give a reaction penalty. If you have a harmful power linked to a useful power, you cannot relegate the harmful half as a nuisance effect to the positive half or vice versa. Both halves are viable powers, and thus must both be purchased at full cost plus Link to force them to be used at the same time.

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by sonic232

I've seen a couple threads misusing this limitation, so I want to get this out there so I don't drive myself crazy:

Viable powers CANNOT be Nuisance Effects. They must physically inconvenience YOU, make YOU obvious (completely negating stealth) or give a reaction penalty. If you have a harmful power linked to a useful power, you cannot relegate the harmful half as a nuisance effect to the positive half or vice versa. Both halves are viable powers, and thus must both be purchased at full cost plus Link to force them to be used at the same time.

I think you've got a valid point, but you take it a little too far: you're making it sound like there's no use for Nuisance Effect other than the three examples given in the book. I'd let a player attach an NE to a power that benefits other people if I could not conceive of the NE being useful. Adding pain on healing would be perfect for torture, so that wouldn't fly.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by sonic232

Viable powers CANNOT be Nuisance Effects. They must physically inconvenience YOU, make YOU obvious (completely negating stealth) or give a reaction penalty. If you have a harmful power linked to a useful power, you cannot relegate the harmful half as a nuisance effect to the positive half or vice versa. Both halves are viable powers, and thus must both be purchased at full cost plus Link to force them to be used at the same time.

As I mentioned in the other thread, setting your beneficial power to have a harmful effect linked to it makes both powers less useful - you can't boost your allies without harming them, and you can't harm your foes without boosting them. Thus, Link is inappropriate, as it costs more than the more-useful variant that lacks the Link. While it isn't RAW, having a potentially-useful Nuisance Effect should be legitimate so long as you also buy the relevant Power with the opposite Nuisance Effect. If these two abilities qualify for being Alternate Abilities is up to the GM (I'd typically go with "yes"). Say you've got a character who can give his targets +10 Lifting ST, but this also causes 2d tox rad damage (it's some sort of radiation beam). I'd say that would be legitimate to build as Affliction: +10 Lifting ST (Nuisance Effect: 2d tox rad), so long as the character also bought a 2d Toxic Innate Attack (Rad, Resistible, Nuisance Effect: +10 Lifting ST) as an Alternate Ability. Thus, anytime a target is struck by the beam, be they friend or foe, they can try to resist or choose not to - if they successfully resist, neither effect occurs, while if they don't, they get a boost to Lifting ST but take some rads in the process. It's a decently balanced hack to allow someone the ability to legitimately build a double-edged power.

[sonic232]

Originally Posted by McAllister

I think you've got a valid point, but you take it a little too far: you're making it sound like there's no use for Nuisance Effect other than the three examples given in the book. I'd let a player attach an NE to a power that benefits other people if I could not conceive of the NE being useful. Adding pain on healing would be perfect for torture, so that wouldn't fly.

Yeah, that'd be a variant of 'Ability Makes You Obvious' depending on what kind of benefit it is. Kinda like the opposite of 'Physically Inconveniences You'. Like everyone around you having polished armor (HP reduction still there, but its nice and shiny now) when you use Healing or something like that.

Originally Posted by Varyon

As I mentioned in the other thread, setting your beneficial power to have a harmful effect linked to it makes both powers less useful - you can't boost your allies without harming them, and you can't harm your foes without boosting them. Thus, Link is inappropriate, as it costs more than the more-useful variant that lacks the Link. While it isn't RAW, having a potentially-useful Nuisance Effect should be legitimate so long as you also buy the relevant Power with the opposite Nuisance Effect. If these two abilities qualify for being Alternate Abilities is up to the GM (I'd typically go with "yes"). Say you've got a character who can give his targets +10 Lifting ST, but this also causes 2d tox rad damage (it's some sort of radiation beam). I'd say that would be legitimate to build as Affliction: +10 Lifting ST (Nuisance Effect: 2d tox rad), so long as the character also bought a 2d Toxic Innate Attack (Rad, Resistible, Nuisance Effect: +10 Lifting ST) as an Alternate Ability. Thus, anytime a target is struck by the beam, be they friend or foe, they can try to resist or choose not to - if they successfully resist, neither effect occurs, while if they don't, they get a boost to Lifting ST but take some rads in the process. It's a decently balanced hack to allow someone the ability to legitimately build a double-edged power.

To build a double-edged power, you use Link, I'm sorry, but that's the way its built. See my reply in the thread in question.

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by sonic232

To build a double-edged power, you use Link, I'm sorry, but that's the way its built. See my reply in the thread in question.

To balance certain interesting powers, you color outside the lines, I'm sorry, but RAW isn't the only approach. See Varyon's post for a sensible model for the effects in question.

[sonic232]

I suppose. But it is outside RAW and up to GM Fiat at that point, as is anything outside RAW.

[Celjabba]

If the 2 powers you wish to activate at the same time are opposite in intent (beneficial/detrimental), paying more to link them is something no one will do willingly (well, almost no one).
Even if it is the "rule as written".
It should be a disadvantage, outside edge case ...

Varyon suggestion amount to a nuisance effect phrased as : 'nuisance effect: activate that other opposite power at the same time as if they were linked' ?
It could be abused, of course, but it make more sense than paying more for less.

I would allow it, with the restriction that if the beneficial effect do nothing (healing someone at full HP, for example), the detrimental is likewise ineffective. I would make it -5/-10% at most, however. -20% feel to generous somehow.

Instead of a nuisance effect, I would call it part of the way the power set work and include it in the power modifier, myself.

Celjabba

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Instead of a nuisance effect, I would call it part of the way the power set work and include it in the power modifier, myself.

I dunno, "all powers cause Itching on the target" is probably impossible to price fairly on a power modifier. It's an inconvenience on Flight, nearly irrelevant on Healing, and pretty useful on a Persistent Area Effect Affliction that reduces DX. Now, "all powers cause Itching on the user" is a traditional Nuisance Effect (in the form of Backlash, from Powers I think).

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by McAllister

I dunno, "all powers cause Itching on the target" is probably impossible to price fairly on a power modifier. It's an inconvenience on Flight, nearly irrelevant on Healing, and pretty useful on a Persistent Area Effect Affliction that reduces DX. Now, "all powers cause Itching on the user" is a traditional Nuisance Effect (in the form of Backlash, from Powers I think).

I was rather thinking of "all power use activate an opposite power at the same time on the same target. Both power must be otherwise usable at the time of the casting, or nothing happen. The two power must clearly be opposite in a beneficial/detrimental way. Both power must be bought with this power modifier. There can only be 2 power in the set. If you want to have several abilities with the same antagonist, buy it twice."

So, you have affliction(itching, annoyingpowermodifier,-10%), flight, healing and affliction(reduced DX). Reduced DX cannot get the power modifier (not opposite). Healing and fight can have the power modifier. And yes, it won't inconvenience the healing much, but if you ever want to use the itching affliction on someone, he would be healed at the same time (and/or gain flight ...). And you had to buy the affliction, so the reduced price on healing/flight is (more or less) paid for.

It is more complex than it should be, I know ... But as long as both effect are roughly similar in power/cost/utility, it should not be unbalanced

Celjabba

[sonic232]

Hrmmmm... What about Trigger? It'd be a Very Common trigger and both sides would have it. I would not allow this if both abilities had similar goals, but... If you wanna go against RAW, Trigger actually seems like the most viable alternative.

EDIT: Both sides would not have it. One would be the Triggering ability that the other is dependent on.