Lunion - implied history and inferences

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by hal

If we go by T5, page 511 of the PDF shows us that TL 13 is achieved about 550. So, different books, different results :(

If this is "TL reaches 13 around 550" it's a real retcon. If it's "In 550 they had achieved TL 13", it could fit with previously information (since they don't achieve TL14 until 700).


Hans

[tjoneslo]

Originally Posted by hal

About the only "canon" I can find regarding certain aspects of the Traveller Universe and its tech level achievements, stems from MEGATRAVELLER in which it indicates the approximate tech levels of the Imperium at a given point in time. It appears that the Imperium reaches TL 15 in some regions, by around 1000 (Solomani Rim War). TL 14 was achieved approximately 700. TL 13 at about 300.

If we go by T5, page 511 of the PDF shows us that TL 13 is achieved about 550. So, different books, different results :(

Based upon canon older than T5, it was possible for individual worlds to exceed the "generally available" Imperial TL. So the question becomes how many Imperial of worlds needs to achieve (for example) TL 13 before the general Imperial TL is advanced? I don't have a good answer for that question, nor in the many debates around TL have I seen anyone bring up a good answer to the question.

Second question is which worlds are likely to exceed the generally available imperial TL? Given the random generation of Traveller worlds, it becomes very difficult to establish rules. Growing colony worlds importing the latest equipment would be one. Large population worlds with progressive education systems. But the UWP doesn't include that information.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by tjoneslo

Based upon canon older than T5, it was possible for individual worlds to exceed the "generally available" Imperial TL. So the question becomes how many Imperial of worlds needs to achieve (for example) TL 13 before the general Imperial TL is advanced? I don't have a good answer for that question, nor in the many debates around TL have I seen anyone bring up a good answer to the question.

Counting the number of TL15 worlds around in 1105 would give us a number. It is, however, fairly likely that a number of worlds have reached TL15 in the period between 1000 and 1105, so the true number would be lower. How much lower? I have no idea.

Second question is which worlds are likely to exceed the generally available imperial TL? Given the random generation of Traveller worlds, it becomes very difficult to establish rules. Growing colony worlds importing the latest equipment would be one. Large population worlds with progressive education systems. But the UWP doesn't include that information.

Actually, the definition of TL says that it's the level of technology that the world can manufacture and maintain (Never mind that those two can easily be different). By that definition a world that imports its technology would have a TL of 0...

(Mind you, my preferred definition is "The level of technology enjoyed by a sizable majority of the population". By that definition imported technology would work too. But that definition is, alas, not official.)

Be that as it may, I'm puzzled as to why the question has been raised in this thread. When I made up Lunion's First Survey UWP, I arbitrarily set it at 12, one level below the established maximum of 13. Even if the 13 for some reason has been retconned to 12, the UWP would still work. So what's the problem here?


Hans

[hal]

If GURPS TRAVELLER FIRST IN is anything to go by, a culture not only needs to have a strong foundation for R&D, but also has to have the willingness to implement those changes. If TL 15 was cutting edge for a few worlds back in 1082, and relatively new ships were rolling off the line in time for the False War, then we're looking at a time period in which the Imperium hasn't really advanced all too far in the last (assuming 1105) 20 years primarily because there are only 4 worlds in the entire Spinward Marches with TL 15 (GURPS TL 12).

I would suspect, that if Imperial Technology is stated to exist as of 1105, with only 4 worlds, chances are good, that TL D existed with only a handful of worlds as well.

[hal]

If GURPS TRAVELLER FIRST IN is anything to go by, a culture not only needs to have a strong foundation for R&D, but also has to have the willingness to implement those changes. If TL 15 was cutting edge for a few worlds back in 1082, and relatively new ships were rolling off the line in time for the False War, then we're looking at a time period in which the Imperium hasn't really advanced all too far in the last (assuming 1105) 20 years primarily because there are only 4 worlds in the entire Spinward Marches with TL 15 (GURPS TL 12).

I would suspect, that if Imperial Technology is stated to exist as of 1105, with only 4 worlds, chances are good, that TL D existed with only a handful of worlds as well.

In the end, a lot of the "going back in time" aspects of looking at the history of any given world, is going to depend on what variables the GM is willing to employ. For instance, in real life, it was thought that population growth/expansion could be about 2% over a period of time. We've since discovered, that population growth can go NEGATIVE on the basis of decisions made by governments where freedoms and taxation are concerned. Case in point - Russia as it is now. Its growth rate is negative, and in general, roughly women are having on average, 1.7 children instead fo the required 2.1 children to maintain zero growth rates. So, in reality, growth rates are going to be arbitrary and depend upon what the GM sees as being "reasonable" for his game world. As I mentioned earlier, in an exercise to see just how much population would have been the "colony" population - expanding at an average rate of 1.65% (if I recall correctly), would reach the general 8 Billion Population given in the current stats for the world. Problem with that is this:

Growth rate is determined by the following factors:

Birth Rates

plus Immigration rates

Minus Death Rates

Minus Emigration rates.

A garden world is likely to have been the number one destination for colonists until such a time as the "open door" policy was eased and eventually closed. So, a simple 1.65 growth rate is probably unrealistic in terms of Lunion simply because it is a Garden world. The Spinward Marches Campaign where the primary star is an M3 (M2?) main sequence star, Lunion wouldn't be such a "garden planet" on the basis of its colder weather. With the newer Second Survey Data - Lunion no longer has an M3 star as its primary, but has a better life sustaining star. As a consequence, it will be TRULY a Garden world but for its Dense Atmosphere and its "taint".

I'm still scratching my head over the "pollutants" theory of taint for the planet - Earth has had an existing industry for its cities for a long time now, in excess of 1,000 years. While its airborne pollutants can be bad in some places - the entire planet is no where near "tainted".

In My Traveller Universe, Lunion's Taint will be that of a heavier than normal concentration of Carbon Dioxide. The problem with this approach however, is that plants such as we find on Earth, would THRIVE better in a higher CO2 atmosphere, and given sufficient time, begin to remove the carbon Dioxide to more acceptable levels. Simply seeding the world's oceans with algae would speed up that particular process, as the bulk of Earth's oxygen sustaining processes (if I recall correctly) stems from its oceans.

Now, were I to create a "history" for Lunion, I'd note when it was first colonized, and how many people were part of the initial colonization attempt. I'd then work out how the government of Lunion started out, evolved, and became what it has become in the present time of 1105. I'd note when the populations made it to any significant milestones, and I'd also make note of when Lunion became relatively self-sufficient to where it had the infrastructure it needed to have in order to become what it became by 1105. About the only rules structure I can think of to model this "history" would be to use POCKET EMPIRES and see if it can be made to work.

Right now, I'm just trying to get the Lunion star systems detailed sufficiently that my players can take off from Lunion's Low Port in the Empress Marava Model B, and head out into the bold universe to see what there is to see :)

[tjoneslo]

Originally Posted by hal

Now, were I to create a "history" for Lunion, I'd note when it was first colonized, and how many people were part of the initial colonization attempt. I'd then work out how the government of Lunion started out, evolved, and became what it has become in the present time of 1105. I'd note when the populations made it to any significant milestones, and I'd also make note of when Lunion became relatively self-sufficient to where it had the infrastructure it needed to have in order to become what it became by 1105. About the only rules structure I can think of to model this "history" would be to use POCKET EMPIRES and see if it can be made to work.

TNE: World Builders Handbook may also provide an interesting alternative, as it has more of the Build your own colony rules. I have a game called Aria which has a set of empire building (over generations) rules, but that's more suited toward medieval fantasy rules. Pen and paper rules for that sort of thing are thin on the ground.

[tjoneslo]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Be that as it may, I'm puzzled as to why the question has been raised in this thread. When I made up Lunion's First Survey UWP, I arbitrarily set it at 12, one level below the established maximum of 13. Even if the 13 for some reason has been retconned to 12, the UWP would still work. So what's the problem here?

I don't have a problem with the current TL for Lunion during the first survey. I was mostly interested in the more abstract discussion of moving through time and calculating what the population and TL would be. Barring black swan events, those values tend to follow pretty regular curves.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by tjoneslo

I don't have a problem with the current TL for Lunion during the first survey. I was mostly interested in the more abstract discussion of moving through time and calculating what the population and TL would be. Barring black swan events, those values tend to follow pretty regular curves.

I usually just decide on a date and a number of setlers for the first settlement and then calculate the population expansion necessary to reach the canonical population figure for 1105. I then interpolate numbers for selected dates in between. The first set of figures I posted in the parent thread was of this kind. The calculations are somewhat simplistic and results in rather low numbers for several centuries in the early days, so when I go into details with a world's history, I often find myself revising the early figures up and adjusting the later figures accordingly. The second set of figures in the aforementioned post illustrate this.

I do have a more detailed method. I calculate the optimum carrying capacity for a world based on its physical characteristics and have population growth be quite a bit higher until the optimum is reached, whereupon I reduce population growth considerably.


Hans

[Fortitude]

Hello, dunno how it has been ruled in classic Traveller but on page 11 of GURPS Traveller Sword Worlds you can find this :

"POPULATION GROWTH
The pattern of populalion growth among hightechnology
societies in the Traveller universe does not
resemble the aile we know from Earth's history.
Instead of having as many children as nature allows
and scrambling to find the means to support them, hightechnology
societies are able to limit tlle number of children
to as many as they feel they can support. Exactly
where that number lies is, of course, very much a matter
of opinion and ideology. Thus there are worlds where
the population has grown as quickly as possible into the
billions. But on most worlds population growlh bas been
much slower, and is often limited by the growth of local
wealth. For a world with a stagnating economy this can
Imean a stable or even falling population.
One of the most common patterns in the Traveller
universe involves more or less rapide growth to a population
level somewhere between 50 and 500 million, followed
by a deliberate policy of population stability. Such
a policy does not always cause a complete stop to population
growth, but it can easily lead to growth rates of
only a few percent per century."

I have the same problem about Lunion system. Navigation datas are nowhere to be found. Whereas there are in Rime of fire.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Actually, the definition of TL says that it's the level of technology that the world can manufacture and maintain (Never mind that those two can easily be different). By that definition a world that imports its technology would have a TL of 0...

(Mind you, my preferred definition is "The level of technology enjoyed by a sizable majority of the population". By that definition imported technology would work too. But that definition is, alas, not official.)




Hans

What if the imports come in a World's own hulls? Surely it is maintaining it as much as if it was made onsite.