epub format for e23

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by RevBob

Unfortunately, that's also the HUGE problem with epub: how do you make a meaningful cross-reference or an index when page numbers and contents are that fluid? That problem simply does not exist with PDF.

Since epub is pretty much full XHTML + CSS, hyperlinks (which work much better than page-reference cross-references for online reading) would seem to be the obvious choice.

Or you can do what lots of reflowable documents in ASCII, HTML, and similar formats converted from print have done for decades, and include the source page numbers in the document either in the text directly (the easy way) or as metadata that can be displayed by the reader (Google eBooks does this with their reader for their converted-from-print reflowable eBooks -- since they use ePub format, this is clearly something that can be done ePub, though I don't know if other reader software/devices would make any use of the information.)

[panton41]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Since epub is pretty much full XHTML + CSS, hyperlinks (which work much better than page-reference cross-references for online reading) would seem to be the obvious choice.

Because it's so easy to click a link on a piece of paper and jump directly to the proper location in an ebook reader.

Edit: Sorry, I'm tired and in a bad mood.

Think about it as if the files were actually pieces of paper. PDF are like a book, individual pages. A specific reference can be located by being given which page to turn to. ePub, and most other ebook formats, are like a long scroll. You start at the top and read to the bottom finding things is largely an exercise in either knowing where it is (links) or speed reading (searches).

The problem is that converting the pages of a book into a single long scroll means that if another source says to look on a certain page then that reference is gone.


The reason is that epub (and Mobi/Kindle) is designed specifically for literature, where the page number isn't as important as where the reader is in the narrative. Even the few technical documents in the format tend to be of the self-contained variety without external documents making reference (and in my experience difficult to use). The problem with roleplaying books is that external references is pretty much the whole point of them. RPGs have things like complex tables that are sensitive to the number of characters a screen can display wide. If, say, a weapon listing requires 72 characters to display properly and the reader is set to show 60 characters then the table is borked. Even page numbers referenced internally aren't of much use because they're difficult to simply type in and go to.

PDF, however, mostly has the problem that it's not the newest "gee-wizz" format for ebooks. Yeah, it has other problems and a poorly written one (White Wolf) can all but brick my Kindle, but a single file can be read on just about anything with a halfway decent processor and a screen (and as far as I'm aware nearly every epub-based device).

The ability for SJ Games to create a single file that can be read on a phone, laptop, desktop, media player, tablet computer, ebook reader, etc. and be effectively identical to the file they transmitted to Taiwan to become the printed book it's a no brainer what to do. You seem to forget that SJ Games is, technically, a small business in a niche market and have limited resources.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Since epub is pretty much full XHTML + CSS, hyperlinks (which work much better than page-reference cross-references for online reading) would seem to be the obvious choice.

Again, that only works for one person at a time. That's fine for most things, but it's a fundamentally flawed solution for game books, which are typically used in shared or social environments.

Notably, game books are often used in situations where two or more people with their own copies of books share page references. Clicking on a hyperlink in my copy of the Basic Set won't open it up on your device so that you can read a table of modifiers or descriptions of maneuvers you may want to choose from. I could mail/text/chat you a link, but that assumes a network or phone connection which either one of us might not have (if, say, we're playing at a home or game store without wifi or a lot of physical connections), I have to hop between applications in order to retrieve the link and go back to the files, and even then it could easily not work if we organize our files differently.

PDF, with its fixed format, doesn't have that problem. I give you a book title and a page number, which I can provide simply by talking to you across the table, and that will infallibly give the the location no matter what medium you're in or what kind of reader you use.

[PK]

Everyone clamoring for epub seems to be overlooking three huge issues. And by "huge," I mean, "I can't see any way to get around these at any point in the future."

1. Page references between physical books and reflowed text. Specifically, the fact that they're nonexistent. Let's say you reflow a digital GURPS Martial Arts so that it's now taking up about 800 of your new, smaller pages. Now I hand you a different, physical book that says "For more details on this type of fighting, see GURPS Martial Arts, p. 157." You have no way to find page 157! At most, the reader might be able to tag a range of pages as "having come from what used to be p. 157," but that's not nearly as useful and will certainly require the user to have some sort of "page reference translation window" open.

2. Cost. PDF pages mimic the look of our physical books. We don't literally send PDF files to the printer, but it's so close to that that you might as well imagine that's how it works. So when we're releasing a physical book, it's only a few extra steps to release the PDF. This keeps our costs low and lets us offer the product at a discount. Epub is a vastly different format. It's a huge difference. If we had to do the work to release a file as an epub, we'd have to raise the prices on both versions, to the point where they'd likely cost more than the physical books. That's not something we want, and I doubt it's something our fans want.

3. Trade dress. A GURPS book is more than just its content. Over the years, we've developed a very specific look for our books -- the flow of text, the layout of boxes, the use of art, etc. -- that allows anyone glancing at a GURPS book to realize that it is a GURPS book without even reading any text. Going to epub means losing that. I realize that not everyone cares about this, but understand that it is a concern. We care about the quality of our books, and that includes the quality of their presentation.

Quite frankly, readers get more advanced every quarter. I know many people who read PDFs natively without any issues, and PDF-capable readers are slowly but surely moving to dominate the e-reader market. Honestly, I have a feeling that even just a few years from now, anyone looking back on this conversation will laugh, "Oh man! I remember back in 2010 when this was actually an issue! Boy, does time fly!"

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by RevBob

Unfortunately, that's also the HUGE problem with epub: how do you make a meaningful cross-reference or an index when page numbers and contents are that fluid? That problem simply does not exist with PDF.

Many years ago, I suggested on the RPG-Create mailing list, that people should abandon page numbers, and instead use numbered sections, like in old school wargames (and in the Powers & Perils RPG - I don't know of other early 1980s RPGs also used it), in order to be able to produce texts that can be printed out problem-free on a variety of paper formats (such as both A4 and Letter) and read on all sorts of display devices.

Of course I later abandoned the concept of the linear text completely, and with that also the idea that the entire text can be printed out for offline reading.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Many years ago, I suggested on the RPG-Create mailing list, that people should abandon page numbers, and instead use numbered sections, like in old school wargames (and in the Powers & Perils RPG - I don't know of other early 1980s RPGs also used it), in order to be able to produce texts that can be printed out problem-free on a variety of paper formats (such as both A4 and Letter) and read on all sorts of display devices.

Of course I later abandoned the concept of the linear text completely, and with that also the idea that the entire text can be printed out for offline reading.

As stated early in the tread when that was suggested, though of us that have used text books published in that manner have found them less than nice to use.

[Kuroshima]

Personally, I dream of a gurps book published using a tiddlywiki-like format, that is, like a wiki, but contained in a single file, and that isn't supposed to be read linearly, but instead browsed by interests.

[prosfilaes]

Originally Posted by ciaran_skye

The problem with roleplaying books is that external references is pretty much the whole point of them.

I don't believe that. I'm playing a D&D 3.5 game, and I can't remember the last time I looked up something by page number. I'm usually searching through an alphabetized list of spells or feats or whatever. Occasionally I look something up in an appendix or table of contents.

I'll note that third-party Pathfinder publishers survive despite being forbidden by contract from mentioning page numbers from the Pathfinder core books.

RPGs have things like complex tables that are sensitive to the number of characters a screen can display wide. If, say, a weapon listing requires 72 characters to display properly and the reader is set to show 60 characters then the table is borked.

Then don't make such big tables. In any case, you have a display that's usually smaller than an 8.5 x 11 page; if the table is larger then that, it's going to be a pain, whether it's an epub or PDF.

Even page numbers referenced internally aren't of much use because they're difficult to simply type in and go to.

I don't understand. I don't see how Epub is any different then PDF in going to a page number.

PDF, however, mostly has the problem that it's not the newest "gee-wizz" format for ebooks.

I have a 6-inch screen on my Kindle. PDF doesn't let my reader format the page so I can read it effectively on a 6-inch screen. The Kindle Touch PDF reader is a bit weak IMO, but even with that dealt with, it would still have the problem that I can't just touch to refill the screen; I would have to figure out where the next chunk of text is, down, up and to the right, or on the next page, and how to go there. The only reason in the world for two column formatting is the fact that the convenient size for a RPG book page is not the convenient size for reading.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by prosfilaes

I don't understand. I don't see how Epub is any different then PDF in going to a page number.

I have here a novel on my tablet in epub. If I hold the tablet in portrait orientation the novel is 221 pages, if I turn it 90 degress it's 398 pages. If that doesn't show problems with page references I don't know what will.

[panton41]

Originally Posted by prosfilaes

I don't believe that. I'm playing a D&D 3.5 game, and I can't remember the last time I looked up something by page number. I'm usually searching through an alphabetized list of spells or feats or whatever. Occasionally I look something up in an appendix or table of contents.

I'll note that third-party Pathfinder publishers survive despite being forbidden by contract from mentioning page numbers from the Pathfinder core books.

And when you're writing in a forum like this how do you reference a particular location in text?

Then don't make such big tables. In any case, you have a display that's usually smaller than an 8.5 x 11 page; if the table is larger then that, it's going to be a pain, whether it's an epub or PDF.

Not going to happen. Tables need to be as big as they are for a reason. I don't want to have to reference multiple locations for a single listing.

I don't understand. I don't see how Epub is any different then PDF in going to a page number.

If you don't know how they differ then you don't know anything about the topic at hand.

A PDF is formatted into pages and more or less is exactly like the book, except in electronic form. ePub stores the text as a single, long flat file very similar to an HTML file (similar markup even) and the location of a "page" is totally dependent on where the reader places them. A Kobo might say epub book X is 500 pages while a Nook might call it 600 and a Sony eReader might call it 550. Amazon has limited support for going to a specific page in a physical book with in the Kindle books, but they use a highly modified version of the Mobi format.

I have a 6-inch screen on my Kindle. PDF doesn't let my reader format the page so I can read it effectively on a 6-inch screen. The Kindle Touch PDF reader is a bit weak IMO, but even with that dealt with, it would still have the problem that I can't just touch to refill the screen; I would have to figure out where the next chunk of text is, down, up and to the right, or on the next page, and how to go there. The only reason in the world for two column formatting is the fact that the convenient size for a RPG book page is not the convenient size for reading.

I have a Kindle DX and they fit perfectly. I bought it for the specific reason it's designed to make letter-sized pages readable. On my Nook Color I can orient the reader so the page's width goes along the long edge and they fit pretty well. A 10" tablet like the iPad or a good number of Android devices are perfect. The smaller ereaders really aren't capable of reading these books well. They're great for novels but little else.