Mage: The Ascension

Edman · 06-20-2011, 06:30 AM

...using GURPS rules. Is this doable? Is this desirable? Has anyone done it? Has anyone ever desired doing it? Were you expecting answers instead of questions?

Anyway, discuss away!

sn0wball · 06-20-2011, 06:52 AM

Using GURPS 3e, I used the GURPS MtA magic rules for an over-the-top science-fantasy campaign and it worked out great. I wasn´t concerned about game balance there, though, since every character used Mage-style magic.

Anaraxes · 06-20-2011, 06:56 AM

SJGames actually had a license for a while and did a 3e book.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/magetheascension/

The "Realm-based syntactic magic" magic system in Thaumatology (Ch. 6) is essentially the Mage system.

Kuroshima · 06-20-2011, 06:56 AM

It's been done OFFICIALLY in 3rd edition. I fact people praised the book a lot when it came out. Now, it was the last GURPS WoD book ever released, and we all know why (and if you don't, google it).

In 4th edition, it's extremely easy, if you have access to thaumatology, to replicate the magic system (Realm Magic is basically a generitized version of MtA magick). Personally, I have an undying hate for WW systems (mainly because they don't seen to be able to do the math. Dice pools are tricky animals too), so if I ran it, it would be under GURPS.

Anders · 06-20-2011, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

It's been done OFFICIALLY in 3rd edition. I fact people praised the book a lot when it came out. Now, it was the last GURPS WoD book ever released, and we all know why (and if you don't, google it).

I did. Page 3 left side of the page begins a fairly extensive, somewhat heated statement about the relationship between the two companies, by Steve Jackson.

Opellulo · 06-20-2011, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Personally, I have an undying hate for WW systems (mainly because they don't seen to be able to do the math. Dice pools are tricky animals too), so if I ran it, it would be under GURPS.

I did it twice but, in my experience, when you translate the "bucket 'o dice" WW system in cold GURPS math something is lost in the process. Theshold Magic works a lot with imagination and GM bargaining: in Mage I don't go any problem and I can invent and describe wonderous magical effect; when I try the same in a GURPS setting I freeze because my mind start to get clogged by other informations like by range, damage, plausibility, scientific explanation and all other cold reality stuff that turns my "Awesone unexplicable magic miracle" in "some lame sleight of hand trick"... I don't know if this is only me, but some system are better played unchanged.

Kuroshima · 06-20-2011, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opellulo

I did it twice but, in my experience, when you translate the "bucket 'o dice" WW system in cold GURPS math something is lost in the process. Theshold Magic works a lot with imagination and GM bargaining: in Mage I don't go any problem and I can invent and describe wonderous magical effect; when I try the same in a GURPS setting I freeze because my mind start to get clogged by other informations like by range, damage, plausibility, scientific explanation and all other cold reality stuff that turns my "Awesone unexplicable magic miracle" in "some lame sleight of hand trick"... I don't know if this is only me, but some system are better played unchanged.

The issue with WW systems is that they flat out break when you look at them closely. When an actions that is supposed to be easy for a character that is skilled becomes pretty much a tossup, when someone who by it's descriptive skill level should be an expert has huge chances to botch a relatively average task, then it's a broken system. Part of the issue is not understanding how dice pools work...

Jeminai · 06-20-2011, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

SJGames actually had a license for a while and did a 3e book.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/magetheascension/

The "Realm-based syntactic magic" magic system in Thaumatology (Ch. 6) is essentially the Mage system.

That's what I was going to say!

Bruno · 06-20-2011, 07:47 AM

All the creativity and negotiation with the GM won't save you when your bag of dice explodes into a bag of botches :/

You have to give them credit, though - eventually they learned. After about three different attempts to fix the system.

Later editions of the game have significantly improved the botching problem by almost completely removing the special status of 1s on dice rolls. The current round of WoD games also helps eyeball probabilities better by fixing difficulty at a static number and solely using "number of successes" as the actual difficulty number.

It's still messy though. I can't argue with the visceral pleasure of dropping 30 dice as your werewolf explodes through Samuel Height (true story) but it's still really slow to resolve.

Anaraxes · 06-20-2011, 08:15 AM

The syntactic magic systems in GURPS do call for a fair amount of player-GM negotiation. "Control Body" or "Matter 3: Create" covers an awful lot of territory.

IMO, the biggest weakness in Mage was the lack of any good system for resolving mage-versus-mage conflicts. Everybody shapes reality to their whim; great. Easy to befuddle or whoop on the mundanes. What happens when two mages are struggling over the same Sphere? "Highest level wins" is a bit dull; opposed rolls require some tweaking. And cleverness ought to get an inning; but granting "good roleplaying/tactics" bonuses means in practice that you're back to GM negotiation, the systemless system. Even more complex, what happens when two mages want to do two different things at the same time, but the effects intersect in the "world" of consensus reality?

This sort of conflict is the core of the whole game, so it seems like there would have been a better system for resolving it.

06-20-2011, 06:30 AM	#1
Edman Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Norrköping, Sweden, Europe, Earth	Mage: The Ascension ...using GURPS rules. Is this doable? Is this desirable? Has anyone done it? Has anyone ever desired doing it? Were you expecting answers instead of questions? Anyway, discuss away! __________________ "Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm proud to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever." - Baron von Münchausen

06-20-2011, 06:52 AM	#2
sn0wball Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Schleswig, Germany	Re: Mage: The Ascension Using GURPS 3e, I used the GURPS MtA magic rules for an over-the-top science-fantasy campaign and it worked out great. I wasn´t concerned about game balance there, though, since every character used Mage-style magic. __________________ No unconsenting english phrases were harmed during the writing of this post.

06-20-2011, 06:56 AM	#3
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Mage: The Ascension SJGames actually had a license for a while and did a 3e book. http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/magetheascension/ The "Realm-based syntactic magic" magic system in Thaumatology (Ch. 6) is essentially the Mage system.

06-20-2011, 06:56 AM	#4
Kuroshima MIB Pyramid Contributor Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)	Re: Mage: The Ascension It's been done OFFICIALLY in 3rd edition. I fact people praised the book a lot when it came out. Now, it was the last GURPS WoD book ever released, and we all know why (and if you don't, google it). In 4th edition, it's extremely easy, if you have access to thaumatology, to replicate the magic system (Realm Magic is basically a generitized version of MtA magick). Personally, I have an undying hate for WW systems (mainly because they don't seen to be able to do the math. Dice pools are tricky animals too), so if I ran it, it would be under GURPS. __________________ Antoni Ten MIB3119 My GURPs character sheet My stuff on e23

06-20-2011, 07:47 AM	#9
Bruno Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada	Re: Mage: The Ascension All the creativity and negotiation with the GM won't save you when your bag of dice explodes into a bag of botches :/ You have to give them credit, though - eventually they learned. After about three different attempts to fix the system. Later editions of the game have significantly improved the botching problem by almost completely removing the special status of 1s on dice rolls. The current round of WoD games also helps eyeball probabilities better by fixing difficulty at a static number and solely using "number of successes" as the actual difficulty number. It's still messy though. I can't argue with the visceral pleasure of dropping 30 dice as your werewolf explodes through Samuel Height (true story) but it's still really slow to resolve. __________________ All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table A Wiki for my F2F Group A neglected GURPS blog

06-20-2011, 08:15 AM	#10
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Mage: The Ascension The syntactic magic systems in GURPS do call for a fair amount of player-GM negotiation. "Control Body" or "Matter 3: Create" covers an awful lot of territory. IMO, the biggest weakness in Mage was the lack of any good system for resolving mage-versus-mage conflicts. Everybody shapes reality to their whim; great. Easy to befuddle or whoop on the mundanes. What happens when two mages are struggling over the same Sphere? "Highest level wins" is a bit dull; opposed rolls require some tweaking. And cleverness ought to get an inning; but granting "good roleplaying/tactics" bonuses means in practice that you're back to GM negotiation, the systemless system. Even more complex, what happens when two mages want to do two different things at the same time, but the effects intersect in the "world" of consensus reality? This sort of conflict is the core of the whole game, so it seems like there would have been a better system for resolving it.