Starting Wealth, What cost of Living gets you, and Cost of a Sedan

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Was that in English now?

I basically agree with you 100%...except for one point

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

[*]The difference between the 80% and the 20% is that it can be anything reasonable at all and therefore works something like Gizmos. However unlike Gizmos "anything reasonable" is pretty much restricted to ordinary items, that aren't generally as useful in a fight, disaster, or other crises. No armored suped up spy-cars, no attack helicopters, no sniper rifles, no professional burglars kits, no top quality mountaineering gear. Nothing that makes the contents of your grass hut/studio apartment/suburban house/McMansion/private moon different from all the other tribesmen/college students/middle class wage-earners/billionaire executives/Imperial princes.

I'm mostly on board with this...except that I wouldn't say the items can't be "generally useful in a fight, disaster, or other crises."

Why? Let me quote B266 what you get at:
"Status 5: A large mansion on an estate, one or two smaller town- houses, an executive jet, a yacht, a small fleet of cars, and dozens of
functionaries (often including a team of bodyguards)."

All of those things, especially that team of bodyguards, which the book says you get as part of your Status 5 life, will easily be useful in a fight, disaster, or other crises. So...I'm totally with you. I don't think the PC would be able to get things with the 80% that aren't normal for that PCs status...but, especially at higher status levels, what normal people are going to have are very often going to be really useful in fights, disasters and other crises.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Any financial dependents whether or not they are actual Dependents are covered by the PC's CoL. Not all dependents are Dependents and vice versa, though. A character can have a wife and kids that aren't ever endangered by adventure or a character can have a Dependent that he's not financially responsible for.

The way I understand it is that CoL generally only cover yourself. Which is why Fantasy specifically states that CoL covers your entire family (from Status -1 in the country and Status 0 in the city).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by trooper6

I'm mostly on board with this...except that I wouldn't say the items can't be "generally useful in a fight, disaster, or other crises."

I said "generally as useful" not "generally useful". What I meant was that sure you have bodyguards, but they aren't going to be anywhere near as good as bodyguards that you specifically hired in game time and made both IC and OOC choices about, or that you got with the Ally advantage. They are going whatever sort of standard Rent-a-Cops or bravos that are normally employed by people who want to keep the riff-raff out, not by people who want to stop killer robots or slay dragons.

Originally Posted by Dragondog

The way I understand it is that CoL generally only cover yourself. Which is why Fantasy specifically states that CoL covers your entire family (from Status -1 in the country and Status 0 in the city).

I think that note in Fantasy was intended to clarify, not contradict. I'm not going to make a player figure out how much more money it costs to have a family, and I'm certainly not going to penalize someone for the deeper characterization. If a person of your Status is expected to support a family in your society, then CoL should cover them. If it can feed cows and pay servants, it can feed and clothe your kids too.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by trooper6

All of those things, especially that team of bodyguards, which the book says you get as part of your Status 5 life, will easily be useful in a fight, disaster, or other crises. So...I'm totally with you. I don't think the PC would be able to get things with the 80% that aren't normal for that PCs status...but, especially at higher status levels, what normal people are going to have are very often going to be really useful in fights, disasters and other crises.

Of course. As your ordinary old car will be useful in a car chase... If you don't own another one.

But you will risk loosing it and having to pay it again... After the car chase rather than before... And it is not a car especially made to take part in a car chase. Just an ordinary one.

Even a wealthy character doesn't own a car specifically made for a car chase or a fight. He usually owns a fancy car, a sport car, a luxurious car, and even several of them, but not an armor car with camouflage and hidden weapons inside, for instance... If the player wants such a car, he can afford it... But he has to pay it with the 20% of his starting wealth (which is not really a problem).

Likewise, a very high status character can have a team of bodyguards. But these bodyguards are professional bodyguards, not comrades in arms. They will protect the character (and even risk their life for him), but they won't do everything the character wants (attacking the foes, entering in his repair during night, etc.). They will respect the law and call the police. They can even try to prevent the character to do some things and, then, become blocking rather than helping: "No, Sir, we can't let you go there! It is too dangerous... And don't do that, please. It's illegal. Your father told us to protect you, even from yourself."

Brief, they are not friends. Friends have a point cost.

This is exactly what Sir Pudding wrote - in my humble opinion. When it comes from the 80% of the starting wealth, the GM choose what it is exactly. Not the player. The player might choose some features (my car is red, for instance). But just the cosmetic ones. And, when it is a NPC, the GM controls it... As an ordinary professional making his ordinary job.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think that note in Fantasy was intended to clarify, not contradict. I'm not going to make a player figure out how much more money it costs to have a family, and I'm certainly not going to penalize someone for the deeper characterization. If a person of your Status is expected to support a family in your society, then CoL should cover them. If it can feed cows and pay servants, it can feed and clothe your kids too.

That makes sense to me. Has anyone seen any official statement on this on the forums?

[Phantasm]

Literary (okay, TV/movie) example:

Speed Racer's car, the Mach 5, was a standard convertible when it was introduced. As such, it was part of his 80%. Then he (or his father, or the CIB - it all depends on which version you prefer) went and modified it for cross-country rally races. When this happened, it went from "just another fancy car on the road" to "adventuring gear". I daresay, since it could be replaced by Racer Motors, that it would have made the shift to Signature Gear.

Does this help?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What I meant was that sure you have bodyguards, but they aren't going to be anywhere near as good as bodyguards that you specifically hired in game time and made both IC and OOC choices about, or that you got with the Ally advantage. They are going whatever sort of standard Rent-a-Cops or bravos that are normally employed by people who want to keep the riff-raff out, not by people who want to stop killer robots or slay dragons.

They are going to be as good as any other bodyguards for anyone of a similar status involved in similar work, which depending on the line of work can mean rent-a-cops or it can mean ex-SEALs.

After all, if you're attacking your rival and dealing with his status/wealth expected professional ex-SEAL bodyguards, when your rival attacks you he'll have to be dealing with your ex-SEAL bodyguards.

[SionEwig]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

<SNIP>


I think that note in Fantasy was intended to clarify, not contradict. I'm not going to make a player figure out how much more money it costs to have a family, and I'm certainly not going to penalize someone for the deeper characterization. If a person of your Status is expected to support a family in your society, then CoL should cover them. If it can feed cows and pay servants, it can feed and clothe your kids too.

I think you are probably right concerning the note in Fantasy on the subject, however I have to strongly disagree with it especially when regarding contemporary setting campaigns (and possibly some others). As anyone who has raised children knows, them little suckers do cost a small fortune to raise so there should be some kind of increase to the CoL, especially if they are also Dependents.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

They are going to be as good as any other bodyguards for anyone of a similar status involved in similar work, which depending on the line of work can mean rent-a-cops or it can mean ex-SEALs.

Similar Status, yes. Similar work? I wouldn't think so. Can Bruce Wayne claim all that Batstuff as lifestyle accoutrement since his job is billionaire superhero? I think Bruce gets the regular "keeping up with the Rockefellers" billionaire stuff with CoL, not the backup Antarctica Batcave (he probably does have a version of Gizmo that let's him get whole new HQs but that's a different thing altogether).

If we just think about bodyguards in the real world, all of the high status people with really famous bodyguards (US Secret Service, Helvetian Pike) don't pay for them out of pocket, but get them as part of the job.

So yeah if nearly everybody in your class hires ex-SEALS as bodyguards you do to. OTOH if they hire regular goons, then unless you go out of your way to hire SEALS you have goons too. It doesn't matter if you are a superhero, or a software magnate. Crime lords, mad scientists, and heads of state don't have to pay for security with CoL, but rather get it through Rank or Allies.

Originally Posted by SionEwig

I think you are probably right concerning the note in Fantasy on the subject, however I have to strongly disagree with it especially when regarding contemporary setting campaigns (and possibly some others). As anyone who has raised children knows, them little suckers do cost a small fortune to raise so there should be some kind of increase to the CoL, especially if they are also Dependents.

In contemporary America both spouses are expected to pay CoL. In nearly any society a bachelor is expected to have more disposable income than a family man of the same Status. If CoL can feed your horse, and pay Jeeves; it ought to be able to feed little Johnny too. CoL is a very abstract number, if you really want to concern yourself with household expenses in a campaign you'd probably be better off trying to calculate them out in greater detail from scratch. Most people don't really care how much their PC's cable bill is each month, though.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

So yeah if nearly everybody in your class hires ex-SEALS as bodyguards you do to. OTOH if they hire regular goons, then unless you go out of your way to hire SEALS you have goons too. It doesn't matter if you are a superhero, or a software magnate. Crime lords, mad scientists, and heads of state don't have to pay for security with CoL, but rather get it through Rank or Allies.

Wealth, Status and the Administrative Rank which comes from being a CEO can all bring an appropriate level of bodyguard.
After all, ex-SEALs need jobs too, and it pays better to work as a bodyguard than as a deputy sheriff.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In contemporary America both spouses are expected to pay CoL. In nearly any society a bachelor is expected to have more disposable income than a family man of the same Status. If CoL can feed your horse, and pay Jeeves; it ought to be able to feed little Johnny too. CoL is a very abstract number, if you really want to concern yourself with household expenses in a campaign you'd probably be better off trying to calculate them out in greater detail from scratch. Most people don't really care how much their PC's cable bill is each month, though.

Actually, the CoL for a working couple is always lower than that for independent bachelors, always has been, one of the advantages of marriage is getting to split all the utility bills and getting more living space with shared housing.

It's the kids which eat into our disposable income, which is why DINKs have so much more of it than those of us married with children.