In Nomine and real religious reactions?

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by Brett

Well, that was how it turned out for me. A very well-regarded and generally excellent GM offered to run In Nomine for a group of my friends. We bought the rules, generated characters, played. But it all seemed a bit strange and pointless.

The GM seemed to think that it mattered that our characters were angels, and that our superior were archangels and servants of God, and that it ought to be shocking that the angels had disagreements about how to go about opposing their enemies, and that some of them were pretty hard-core. The creepy multi-eyed police-state guy was supposed to be particularly...something. The rather low contrast was supposed to be...something. But we couldn't tell what. Just couldn't tell what the difference was supposed to be between our characters and superheros. We tried to find out. Couldn't. I think that doubting God's Plan, and doubting that angels are serving it was supposed to be...something. But if angels are just something you see on Christmas cards while you are trying to get lunch in a crowd of frenzied shoppers it doesn't work.

Suppose I ran a game in which the Bosatu and the Oni were represented as rather like rival yakuza, and not so different as all that. It wouldn't be exciting and edgy. It'd just be weird and pointless.

I think that perhaps all the angel and demon stuff doesn't resonate right for non-Abrahamic players.

If I might ask, you had a problem with the idea that the angels didn't seem any different than super heroes and thought they should be something more? Or rather the GM thought the players should perceive their angel characters as more than just super heroes and the angels themselves should be shocked that the arch-angels have rivalries and are less than perfect?

I'm pretty much an agnostic these days. But I can sort of see where it all seems rather pointless if the angels seem to be just humans with powers and all the moral and ethical weaknesses of humans although being played by human player characters of varying degrees of roleplaying interest, I can't see how it could end up any other way.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Parabola

I'm not sure what CDaU is.

Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. Essentially there are questions in the setting which will never be answered by published materials.

[Andygal]

I agree that angels shouldn't be just super-heros, because honestly, if they are just super-heros that act more or less just like humans, why not play GURPS Supers or some other game involving human superheroes. Part of the appeal of IN at least for me is the chance to stretch yourself and roleplay a being that thinks much differently then you do.

But it would be pretty boring if they never had any moral or ethical dilemmas at all, maybe angels aren't as flawed as humans or maybe they are flawed in different ways then humans but playing characters that don't have any sort of emotional or moral conflicts would get boring pretty fast, unless you're a die-hard hack-n-slasher.

Maybe that goes against some people's religious and cultural upbringing in a way that makes them uncomfortable, but IN is a roleplaying game and you have to be able to play interesting characters.

I have no idea whether any of that was relevant to anybody else, but it's just what I thought of while reading the discussion.

[The Final Door]

Originally Posted by Andygal

I have no idea whether any of that was relevant to anybody else, but it's just what I thought of while reading the discussion.

It may be more relevant (to the GEARS setting) than you think. The Divine elements portrayed in the setting have actually been missing some of that same feel. True, we've only been prodding at the setting for a few days, but getting these things in early on might just turn an interesting idea into a cool setting yet. So if you feel like elaborating (or anyone wants to comment), I am all ears!

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Parabola

If I might ask, you had a problem with the idea that the angels didn't seem any different than super heroes and thought they should be something more? Or rather the GM thought the players should perceive their angel characters as more than just super heroes and the angels themselves should be shocked that the arch-angels have rivalries and are less than perfect?

The angels seemed like comic-book characters to me and the other players. That was supposed to be surprising, a twist of some sort. But as none of the character-players ever had any impression that they ought to be something else it all fell rather flat.

IN is built on the idea that "angel" is a specially evocative word, and that the idea of playing an angel is something special. But to us players in that group "Angel" might as well have been one of the original X-Men. We were aware that angels are something rather special in the Abrahamic religions, but we were completely vague on what that are supposed to be. What I know about angels I learned from The Prophecy.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Sounds kind of cool actually.

Well, yes, it does. I didn't search long enough for something totally alien.

I'm an agnostic (or whatever, probably more of a pantheist actually) and I'm continually reminded that I live in a Christian culture, and things like Angels and Demons definitely resonate with me. Perhaps this is a difference between American and Australian cultures?

Possibly, though perhaps it is more likely that we four players were unusually grown-up-free-from-talk-about-angels.

I think about 75% of Australians identify themselves as adherents of some religion or other. The Anglican and Catholic archbishops of Sydney each estimate that about one quarter of the self-described adherents of his denomination actually believe in God. Some of the others may be deists.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Brett

What I know about angles I learned from The Prophecy.

spits coffee at screen LOL when anyone asks what In Nomine is about, that is the first place I point them. Go watch The Prophecy, especially the scene leading up to Gabriel flambé ing Simon. IN in a nutshell, right there.

"without the Word..."
"There's only the argument!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOu-3sO5D-g

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by Brett

The angels seemed like comic-book characters to me and the other players. That was supposed to be surprising, a twist of some sort. But as none of the character-players ever had any impression that they ought to be something else it all fell rather flat.

IN is built on the idea that "angel" is a specially evocative word, and that the idea of playing an angel is something special. But to us players in that group "Angel" might as well have been one of the original X-Men. We were aware that angels are something rather special in the Abrahamic religions, but we were completely vague on what that are supposed to be. What I know about angles I learned from The Prophecy.

I do think that is true. IN does capitolize on the idea that there is something special and awe-inspiring about the idea of an angel- and then undercuts it right away in the introductory story. The biblical image of an angel would be of a being that simply recieves the orders of the Israelite god and then comes down and performs the mission he was sent to perform without thought and with no questioning what is right or wrong in any given situation. If their god says, 'Go watch a baby being born and give it my blessings', good stuff. If he says, 'Pass over a nation and kill every first born child', good stuff.

The IN writer(s) realize that is never going to work in a rpg. Angels lie and deceive but they also might question what is right or wrong in a situation.

The demons are oft-forgotten but in reading the game, I had to laugh at one point in the story when a demon talked about how more mature in his evil he is now compared to when he was a fledging. Back then, he parked in handicap parking places. But with the wisdom of age, he now realizes that it is far more annoying to double or even quadruple park, managing to use up four parking spaces. I thought, "Oh my goodness, this is like a ten year old's concept of evil."

For better or worse, IN angels and demons are basically super heroes and super villains. When you also bring the pagan gods into it, I get no impression that there is any defining thing that makes the angels the ultimate good guys except they just say they are and their boss is more powerful than the bosses of the others.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Brett

Suppose I ran a game in which the Bosatu and the Oni were represented as rather like rival yakuza, and not so different as all that. It wouldn't be exciting and edgy. It'd just be weird and pointless.

Or a takeoff of Urusei Yatsura. Which raises the question of how the Ethereals handle Essence from humans who only know about the distorted versions of themselves... but that's a question for another thread (and a re-reading of the EPG).

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Or a takeoff of Urusei Yatsura. Which raises the question of how the Ethereals handle Essence from humans who only know about the distorted versions of themselves... but that's a question for another thread (and a re-reading of the EPG).

Broadly, if it's "Close enough" they get it, if not a new Ethereal will be created who'll get it. The original can then go eat the new weak version and get the Essence again. IIRC anyway.