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Old 03-03-2008, 06:10 PM   #11
Rskennan
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

You've got a point, vitruvian. I'll do some more thinking.

Deomnsbane, I've got to work out an exact list of powers and disadvantages for this campaign, and I'll try to post a few sample demon power/disadvantage packs.

I'm thinking that the framework will work a bit like this:

A defeated demon comes with a will score (the Godeater doesn't pay for this), a Power (from GURPS Powers) and a disadvantage. This pack has a cost (obviously), and the Godeater will know roughly how much it is when he defeats a demon. In game, he'll know if he's powerful enough to contain a given demon's spirit, and how much of his spiritual reserve it will take.

A Godeater can release a spirit to free up the points he needs to take in a different demon (I need to figure out how much this ability costs- it amounts to a partial respec of the character at will, when circumstances are right)

Any other ideas?
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian
We could coin a phrase and call this malanimism. Everything is alive, and pretty much everything is out to get you, too. The gnarled trees in the shadowed forest glower at you, especially if you happen to be carrying bronze cutting implements of any kind. The rivers and streams beckon you, hoping to pull you beneath and keep *your* spirit as their servant forever. The fire always seeks to lick beyond its bounds and consume you and everything you hold dear. The birds and squirrels chirp and rustle to each other all the time... plotting.
I posted before I saw this part of your post- This is AWESOME. I can definitely use it in some capacity.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rskennan
A Godeater can release a spirit to free up the points he needs to take in a different demon (I need to figure out how much this ability costs- it amounts to a partial respec of the character at will, when circumstances are right)
That's a Modular Ability, with a single slot.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

Tragic and interesting!

A distinction between animism and "malanimism" is very needed and useful here, because animism needs to be grounded in the normal conception of the chain of the Being, while the "malanimism" would need another different foundation.

Some basis for such "malanimism" could be:

A) There is no chain and no Being, but a sort of Elder Thing and its spawn. . . In consecuence, hells, demons and strange parallel dimensions (*) lacking of any analogical relationship with the human world are the only "superior beings" and "cosmic orders" in the universe.

(*) Because cosmical orders mutually related between themselves in an analogical way needs a hierarchical structure for operating, and that very arrangement is a sort of ordenation of the cosmos by following the gradation of the Chain. But if there isn't such Chain and the supernatural remains real then consecuences follow. . . mostly in an horizontal arrangement own of the current "many worlds" hypothesis.

In this way analogical and symbolic relations aren't possible anymore, so the hostile and alien spirits interacting with "the world" should need a completely arbitrary language different of animistic symbolism -if they use one at all!- for making possible some type of "formal" interactions with the human beings.


B) The chain of the Being was cut; or the representative beings of the chain making effective its connection with the world through some rituals were killed -or the killed ones were the guardian beings of the chain striving for keeping its link alive and functional in the world-, resulting in all or a lot of beings (as these spirits) losing their vital connection with the primordial Being -the origin of the chain-, from where they were drawing all their positive attributes, thanks to the participation in the first cause.


The end result of these two almost equivalent settings could be these beings and creatures, now lacking of their link with the Summun Bonum (gods, god, or the transcendent essence beyond any amount of different gods, doesn't matter), now can't avoid turning themselves in:
  • Unintelligent: by turning to a madness state due their separation from their essential cause, not being able to keep any participation in the universal intellect -the source of the Chain and of all intelligence- anymore.
  • Dangerous, harmful: due the the separation from the Being and the resulting imposibility of any participation of the Summum Bonum, they only experiment suffering. Their sheer suffering soon needs to be proyected outside of themselves so they are now in need of inflicting suffering to others, acting in harmful, dangerous and vengative ways.
    Or lacking of an effective connection with the cohesive principle of the universe -the Being- these spirits turn to be "fallen natures" bringers of dissolving influences. . . similar to the undead and portraying some sort of negative or entropic (3e Religion, p. 15) energy.
  • Too alien: by severing the Chain all true intelligence and faithful perception or understanding of the diverse cosmic levels is now lost and banned, so maybe these spirits aren't able to understand or to perceive themselves and "the worlds" without a huge veil of ignorance, resulting in a distorting view or interpretation of themselves and of the whole cosmos. That distorting interpretation of themselves should be enough estrange and "alien", and why not even "too alien". So much as their failed attempts to understand their own subtle, astral or psychic state of existence or the corporeal human world.


Because a inexistent or non-working chain of the Being is usually more than enough for making suitable a dark setting in any world.

The result of any of the two earlier points easily would have these consequences:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian
We could coin a phrase and call this malanimism. Everything is alive, and pretty much everything is out to get you, too. The gnarled trees in the shadowed forest glower at you, especially if you happen to be carrying bronze cutting implements of any kind. The rivers and streams beckon you, hoping to pull you beneath and keep *your* spirit as their servant forever. The fire always seeks to lick beyond its bounds and consume you and everything you hold dear. The birds and squirrels chirp and rustle to each other all the time... plotting.
But there is room for further considerations:

The perception of the world and the "wild nature" as estrange and/or straightforward hostile -along with the natural spirits and forces, being different outward and phenomenic manifestations of the immanent Earth goddessess or of transcendent Sky gods-, would be the own view of people and cultures lacking of effective symbols, rituals and knowledge for enabling the conscious communication with the different cosmic orders and not being aware of the chain of the Being existence.

Such peoples or cultures intellectually and ritually disconnected from the cosmos -both in understanding and in actions- only can be unaware of the world's deep dimensions and to remain unknowing the order and/or meaning inherent to the whole cosmos that is by virtue of the essential Chain, relying only in the capabilities of inference through subjective and partial observation of the corporeal world.

It is very difficult to find any culture lacking of some particular version of the Axis mundi, what isn't but a limited vertical section of the very chain of the Being, crossing through the human world.

Because the Axis mundi was and is one of the main things standing there for cancelling a true "cosmic horror view" or "Lovecraftian worldview" by portraying in itself the meanings of cosmic stability, ontological order and divine gradation from the essential Being, its eventual destruction only could mean the greatest catastrophe possible, conducting to the dissolution of the entire cosmos in the Night of Brahma or yet worse: in the substantial and chthonic black waters of the non-being ("entropy", see 3e Religion p. 15). In other words: in the Summum Malum.

Almost finishing these last considerations, the lack of cosmic knowledge would render a entire people or culture of men completely paranoid about their natural surroundings because their very perception of the entire "natural" world along with the astral entities and spiritual beings would be just wrong. Lacking of the cosmological keys, they wouldn't be necessarily aware of the inherent universal order or meaning, being that "meaning" the direct consecuence of the intellectual nature of the Being, or source of the chain.

Because the lack of effective knowledge engenders fear, it would result not only into a wrong worldview but also into a strongly distorted perception of the world, not too different -once again- to this:

Quote:
"Everything is alive, and pretty much everything is out to get you, too (...) rivers and streams beckon you, hoping to pull you beneath and keep *your* spirit as their servant forever (...) The fire always seeks to lick beyond its bounds and consume you and everything you hold dear (...) birds (...) chirp and rustle to each other (...) plotting".


From this "starting point", people could accept stoically the dangerous nonsense fighting against the world for mere survival while still enshrouded in fear, or to develop enough technological capabilities for being able to protect themselves from the wild, estrange and hostile cosmos, or to invent vague religious beliefs about a sort of goodness and kindness permeating all life despite the appearances.

So, there is also the possibility of any
world being "dark" but -according with this additional development- only in the subjective interpretation of these humans lacking of understanding.

That understanding could be a "dark fantasy mystery" waiting for discovery, bringing that discovery the posibility of "salvation of the world" from its "dark" and "horrific" view by enabling successful relations with the angry "spirits" and gods -strongly offended by the human lack of recriprocity in their relations since ancient times!- and by enabling a more or less right and a bit more luminous view of the reality.
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rskennan
GODEATERS Man cannot naturally use magic. Only those who have come to the brink of death and been brought back by sorcery can hope to command it. Such men and women become Godeaters, with the ability to take the souls of defeated demons into themselves, and if they survive the ensuing battle of wills, to command their power for their own ends. Power doesn't come without a price, however. With the bonding of souls comes a cacophony of wicked voices inside the Godeater's mind (...)
Split personality, nightmares, posession, compulsive behaviors? These and others could be some of the usual disadvantages of a Godeater.

For more darkness in the setting, a further tweak can be suited:

The Godeater's "initiatic death" experience is a supernatural process necessarily implying a sort of "resurrection" by forcefully seizing -in minutes of being dead!- the psychic-astral modality of one or some of the defeated demon(s) and harnessing its(their) own demonic life force into himself for the Godeater returning to the bodily life once again. . . but reborn with demonic links and capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rskennan
A defeated demon comes with a will score (the Godeater doesn't pay for this), a Power (from GURPS Powers) and a disadvantage.
If this would be the case, it is possible the very soul of the Godeater being almost completely substituted with the psychic-astral being of that demon (1), or else the Godeater's soul may become very entangled and tainted with the the soul of the seized demon(s) responsible for bringing it to life for second time.

That would imply a sort of definitive and special affinity or relationship with that particular demon or initial bunch of them, as you say, forcing to a partial respec for the Godeater character if he releases his particular demon(s).

And following this, it can be even more difficult to think about "releasing" these demon(s), or substituting them for another diferent ones: in the process of liberating a demon already identified with his life-force, the Godeater can very well lose his current immaterial link with the own bodily life:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rskennan
Unless the Godeater releases a demon, their fates are forever intertwined.If the Godeater dies, so does the demon, and so an intelligent demon will try to ensure its host's survival or to secure its own release.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rskennan
I've got to work out an exact list of powers and disadvantages for this campaign, and I'll try to post a few sample demon power/disadvantage packs.
That will be interesting.


(1) Indeed, the Godeater human may lose necessarily his own soul as part of the requirements of that initiatic death! And thus, he would need the very soul(s) of the demon(s) for climing to the corporeal life once again, but inwardly transmuted.
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

Yesterday, we met to make characters and do an opening scene to introduce the players to each other. It went pretty well. Since none of us are used to the system yet, the players get to respec their characters for the next few sessions, and they've allowed me to make changes to the campaign as things play out.

I ended up having Godeaters use Modular Abilities with a special limitation: Absorption; whereby they can only use abilities that they take from defeated foes. It works out as pretty expensive (a bit more than 4 times more expensive that just buying the abilities outright), but I figured that the under-the-table disadvantages and ability to switch out abilities would make up for it.

But it doesn't feel right. With 300 points, the Godeater in the group built a simple bronze age fisherman (he's from a village that supplied food for the nearby citystate) as a base, with just 70 points in his modular ability pool. That worked out to just enough for a single decent fire spirit. Furthermore, Modular ability doesn't support contests of wills to make the spirit do what it's told. The mechanics don't live up to what I envisioned for the type of character.

However, I was reading my GURPS books to clear up some issues that came up in the brief session we played yesterday, and I finally really *read* the Ally Advantage, which I had alway glossed over as less interesting that stuff like flight or innate attack, etc. It actually seems like it will do almost exactly what I need. Here's what I have so far:

Each spirit/demon is an Ally with:

Frequency: Constantly Available (X4)
Minion (Enslaved with no hope of escape)+50%
Special Abilities (Grants Godeater special powers)+50%
Sympathy (dies on host's death, not reciprocal) -40%
Unwilling (reduced in value since they can't leave if they rebel, and an uncooperative spirit can be replaced) -25%

I need help with one major aspect of this approach-

I'd like the spirit to bestow its disadvantages upon its host, and there doesn't seem to be a way to do that with allies.

The cost does seem low, as well, but if I inserted Allies as modular abilities under the Godeater's Modular ability that I have so far, it would solve my problem of the Godeater not having many spirits inside him, and my other issues would work out. It woulod also make Godeaters the social, history-weaving creatures I imagined, if a player used modular allies for other NPCs.

Any thoughts are appreciated, especially on how to handle the modular disadvantages issue. Thanks.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:37 AM   #17
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

Quote:
Special Abilities (Grants Godeater special powers)+50%
This is great, except that the character *still* has to buy the powers themselves, albeit with a nice big limitations (IIRC, -40% for familiars and such).

On the other hand, if the spirit has certain special abilities of its own (presumably with Affects Substantial) as well as granting some to the Godeater, that can be very useful - even if not *too* powerful, it's another character acting on the PC's behalf when directed.

Quote:
I'd like the spirit to bestow its disadvantages upon its host, and there doesn't seem to be a way to do that with allies.
Not directly, but what if you took the specific powers you get from the spirit, and applied Temporary Disadvantages at whatever level to them, along with the -40% for Granted by Ally? That way, you could almost always get things down to -70% or -80%, and be able to afford a number of abilities either inside or outside your Modlular Abilities...
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:58 AM   #18
Rskennan
 
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Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

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Originally Posted by vitruvian
On the other hand, if the spirit has certain special abilities of its own (presumably with Affects Substantial) as well as granting some to the Godeater, that can be very useful - even if not *too* powerful, it's another character acting on the PC's behalf when directed.
That's actually what I was trying to represent. I guess I'll take out "Supernatural Abilities".

Tying temporary disadvantages to each ally sounds smart.

Last edited by Rskennan; 03-10-2008 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 03:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

Quote:
That's actually what I was trying to represent. I guess I'll take out "Supernatural Abilities".

Tying temporary disadvantages to each ally sounds smart.
I wouldn't put Temporary Disads on the Ally advantage itself, honestly. Since you have the spirits as Constantly around, you would *always* have those Disadvantages in effect.

I would keep 'grants special abilities' and define two types of things you can do with the spirit powers. One is to tell the spirit to go off and do something - attack somebody psychically, possess someone, make a fire, give somebody a disease, make the wind blow, whatever the specific spirit has the ability to do by itself. By the same token, while you're doing that anybody who has the ability to see or combat spirits can fight back against them. Call this 'evoking' the spirit.

Conversely, you could also 'invoke' the spirit, internalizing some aspect of its power so it allows you to do something. For example, in Jim Butcher's Codex Alera series, those with an affinity for earth elementals (furies, in their parlance) can internalize the power of the earth and give themselves massive strength while in contact with the ground; those controlling air furies can make themselves quicker; those in touch with the furies of metal can ignore pain; and so on.

So, I'd go with a paradigm where for each spirit eaten, you have a Power with Ally (Constantly Available (X4), Minion +50%, Special Abilities +50%) *and* several other abilities, each of which gets the Power Modifier, -40% for 'Granted by Ally Spirit', *and* Temporary Disadvantages depending on what the side effects of invoking the spirit's powers into your inner being might be; these combined limitations will insure that your other abilities won't be *too* costly, and if the spirit Ally is unable to act on your behalf while being invoked/internalized, these can actually be Alternate Abilities. That way, at any given time, you could choose between having your earth elemental manifest in a bodily form of dirt and rocks to pound on your opponents, open a rift beneath their feet, or invoke its strength so that you yourself can tear tree trunks from the ground and swat your opponents away. Same deal for a demon of rage - you could choose between having it zip around in spirit form inspiring your foes to fight amongst themselves, or inhabit your body and make you a fierce combatant at the cost of going Berserk.
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: My first GURPS campaign- Dark sword and sorcery with stone age elements.

Well, the only power a godeater gets is the internalized one that you mention- sort of. He basically tells the spirit to manifest its power, and if he wins a contest of wills, the spirit does. The spirit can't leave the Godeater, it can only manifest powers through him. The Godeater doesn't directly get any powers granted to him, he just forces the spirit to use its own abilities. The disadvantages, strictly speaking get channeled through him as well, but they have a more immediate effect most of the time.

Does that change your answer? I'm still a newbie, so I'm not sure.
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