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Old 02-08-2008, 07:13 AM   #1
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default a puzzle about spirits

I'm looking at starting up a fantasy campaign in a few months, where some of the player characters are likely to be spirits living and acting in the spirit plane. Now, I understand how the spirit form meta-trait works. But that's for spirits that have come from the spirit plane to the material plane, where on the one hand they are invisible, intangible, and (in some versions) inaudible—basically just floating points of view, and on the other hand they are exempt from all metabolic needs. But that's not necessarily true on the spirit plane, in either case. Everything there is a spirit, or made of whatever "stuff" spirits are made of, and presumably spirits have some sort of life-sustaining interaction that's functionally equivalent to eating, drinking, and breathing, in the same way that a machine has a need for fuel.

(i) What is the proper representation for a spirit residing in the spirit plane?

(ii) What is the proper way to define the trait "able to visit the material plane and travel about there as an invisible, intangible being"?

Also, there will probably be human characters visiting the spirit plane, whether in dreams, in trance, via spells that produce the same effect, via spells that transpose their bodies there, or via gates or "soft places" that let them walk from the material world to the spirit plane. How does one represent a material being visiting the spirit plane, from the viewpoint of the spirit plane?

I'm getting a bit stumped by this. But it seems to me there out to be a way to define all this under the RaW that I'm just not seeing.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:28 AM   #2
Jerander
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Rochester, MN
Default Re: a puzzle about spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
I'm looking at starting up a fantasy campaign in a few months, where some of the player characters are likely to be spirits living and acting in the spirit plane. Now, I understand how the spirit form meta-trait works. But that's for spirits that have come from the spirit plane to the material plane, where on the one hand they are invisible, intangible, and (in some versions) inaudible—basically just floating points of view, and on the other hand they are exempt from all metabolic needs. But that's not necessarily true on the spirit plane, in either case. Everything there is a spirit, or made of whatever "stuff" spirits are made of, and presumably spirits have some sort of life-sustaining interaction that's functionally equivalent to eating, drinking, and breathing, in the same way that a machine has a need for fuel.

(i) What is the proper representation for a spirit residing in the spirit plane?

(ii) What is the proper way to define the trait "able to visit the material plane and travel about there as an invisible, intangible being"?

Also, there will probably be human characters visiting the spirit plane, whether in dreams, in trance, via spells that produce the same effect, via spells that transpose their bodies there, or via gates or "soft places" that let them walk from the material world to the spirit plane. How does one represent a material being visiting the spirit plane, from the viewpoint of the spirit plane?

I'm getting a bit stumped by this. But it seems to me there out to be a way to define all this under the RaW that I'm just not seeing.

Bill Stoddard
There are many ways to do this. Kind of depends on how you define the various realms. Sounds to me like you're defining the "spirit realms" as just another "physical realm": spirits have a *physical* state in the spirit realm (with the need to eat, breathe, etc.), but a "spiritual" state in the "physical" realm. Do I understand you correctly?

If so, then I'd assume that "spirits" visiting the physical realm would be using the Projection version of Jumper (Spirit). Their "bodies" would remain behind in the spirit realm, but their "points of view" would be here in the physical realm. Give all spirits that trait with proper enhancements/limitations.

As for matieral being visiting the spirit plane. Depends. If they're traveling there "in body," then they'll be just as "physical" as the native "spirits." If they're Projecting, then they'd be insubstantial "points of view." In either case, if being able to visit the spirit realm is an innate ability, then you'll need to price a Jumper (Spirit) for them.

Does that help?
Jerander.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:54 AM   #3
whswhs
 
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Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: a puzzle about spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerander
There are many ways to do this. Kind of depends on how you define the various realms. Sounds to me like you're defining the "spirit realms" as just another "physical realm": spirits have a *physical* state in the spirit realm (with the need to eat, breathe, etc.), but a "spiritual" state in the "physical" realm. Do I understand you correctly?
Not quite. I don't envision the spirit realm as having *the same* physics as the material realm. The material realm is based on causal signs and causality, including "distance" being defined ultimately by lightlike paths between events. The spirit realm is based on iconic signs and similarity, with "distance" being based on how much things look like each other/have similar patterns (sort of like walking through Shadow in the Amber books). So the metabolism of beings in the spirit realm is not literally the same as that of embodied beings in the material realm. But it has analogous processes.

Quote:
If so, then I'd assume that "spirits" visiting the physical realm would be using the Projection version of Jumper (Spirit). Their "bodies" would remain behind in the spirit realm, but their "points of view" would be here in the physical realm. Give all spirits that trait with proper enhancements/limitations.
I'll have to review that.

Quote:
As for matieral being visiting the spirit plane. Depends. If they're traveling there "in body," then they'll be just as "physical" as the native "spirits." If they're Projecting, then they'd be insubstantial "points of view." In either case, if being able to visit the spirit realm is an innate ability, then you'll need to price a Jumper (Spirit) for them.
I'm not sure I see it that way for projecting. Most accounts of the "astral plane" make it sound as if, when you're there, the spirits who live there can see and touch you. Likewise if you're dreaming, dream beings can affect you. I'm not quite sure how to define the kind of "immunity" that material beings have by being able to wake up/come out of trance.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:17 AM   #4
cccwebs
 
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Default Re: a puzzle about spirits

Quote:
(i) What is the proper representation for a spirit residing in the spirit plane?
Well, this would depend completely on the "physics" of your spirit plane. If the campaign "normal" is the material world, then you need to build a racial template which includes all the necessary abilities to "live" in the spirit realm.*

Quote:
(ii) What is the proper way to define the trait "able to visit the material plane and travel about there as an invisible, intangible being"?
Use Alternate Form with Projection. Create the AF with Insubstantiality (with Always On or Usually On) The AF will most likely cost less than the base racial template, so this would likely just end up being a 15 pt advantage.

* - this may seem expensive, but overall the "balance" needs to be maintained between the characters.

Also, if the physics of your spirit realm are more "iconic" for distances, you will need to apply an equivelant distance in yds between locations. This distance can, and most likley, will change due to the somewhat fluidic nature of an iconic representation.
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:33 AM   #5
whswhs
 
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Default Re: a puzzle about spirits

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Originally Posted by cccwebs
Well, this would depend completely on the "physics" of your spirit plane. If the campaign "normal" is the material world, then you need to build a racial template which includes all the necessary abilities to "live" in the spirit realm.*
Why should they cost anything?

I mean, for example, a fish has Doesn't Breathe (Gills) for 0 points, because the fish can only breathe water. And that's fair, because I have Breathes Air, which also costs 0 points; and a hypothetical Neptunian would have, say, Breathes Methane, also for 0 points. If a spirit looks like a person, and has nostrils and the ability to inhale and exhale, and needs to do so to tap the flow of mana or chi or whatever through the spirit plane's analog of air, it seems that it ought not to need to pay for the ability Breathes Pneuma.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:22 AM   #6
Jerander
 
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Default Re: a puzzle about spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
Not quite. I don't envision the spirit realm as having *the same* physics as the material realm. The material realm is based on causal signs and causality, including "distance" being defined ultimately by lightlike paths between events. The spirit realm is based on iconic signs and similarity, with "distance" being based on how much things look like each other/have similar patterns (sort of like walking through Shadow in the Amber books). So the metabolism of beings in the spirit realm is not literally the same as that of embodied beings in the material realm. But it has analogous processes.
Okay, so, do spirits have the equivalent of "bodies" in their realm? Can a spirit's soul leave it's body? Here in the material realm, the body and soul are often described as two separate things with abilities based on that assumption. Do spirits have a "conceptual body" and a soul? Are the two seperable? If so, I'd still think Projection is still your boy. If not, then maybe just plan Jumper (Spirit) is the way to go.

Can "humans" (material beings) enter the spirit realms *in body*, or can they only project their souls into it? If they can only project their souls, then Projection. If in body, then plan Jumper (Spirit).

As for the rest of it -- pricing out the abilities when they get where they're going -- I'll have to think about it a little more. And it does kind of depend on your answers above and how you envision the whole set-up.

Jerander.
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:48 AM   #7
whswhs
 
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Default Re: a puzzle about spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerander
Okay, so, do spirits have the equivalent of "bodies" in their realm? Can a spirit's soul leave it's body? Here in the material realm, the body and soul are often described as two separate things with abilities based on that assumption. Do spirits have a "conceptual body" and a soul? Are the two seperable? If so, I'd still think Projection is still your boy. If not, then maybe just plan Jumper (Spirit) is the way to go.

Can "humans" (material beings) enter the spirit realms *in body*, or can they only project their souls into it? If they can only project their souls, then Projection. If in body, then plan Jumper (Spirit).

As for the rest of it -- pricing out the abilities when they get where they're going -- I'll have to think about it a little more. And it does kind of depend on your answers above and how you envision the whole set-up.
I think that spirits have no body separate from their spirit. They can't project themselves into the material plane and leave a "spirit body" behind; they can only come into the material plane as a whole being. On the other hand, humans can do either: normally their souls enter the spirit plane (in dreams, or after death, or in trance/astral projection, or via spells), but in special cases they can "walk" into the spirit plane, leaving their material bodies as, well, I suppose an unrealized potential for material substance.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:28 AM   #8
Jerander
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Rochester, MN
Default Re: a puzzle about spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
I think that spirits have no body separate from their spirit. They can't project themselves into the material plane and leave a "spirit body" behind; they can only come into the material plane as a whole being. On the other hand, humans can do either: normally their souls enter the spirit plane (in dreams, or after death, or in trance/astral projection, or via spells), but in special cases they can "walk" into the spirit plane, leaving their material bodies as, well, I suppose an unrealized potential for material substance.

Bill Stoddard
So I'd go with Jumper (Spirit) + Doesn't Breathe (Only While in Material Realm, -10%) -- or something else to handle their lack of need for physical air -- for spirits.

Material beings would get either Jumper (Spirit) (Projection, +x%) + Doesn't Breathe (Only while in Spirit Realm, -10%) or Jumper (Spirit).

If they enter in body, how dangerous is the different "physics" of the Spirit Realm to that body? Are their bodies automatically translated into "spirit stuff" to survive there or will they need to bring some form of protection (air tanks, food, force fields...)?
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: a puzzle about spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
Why should they cost anything?

I mean, for example, a fish has Doesn't Breathe (Gills) for 0 points, because the fish can only breathe water. And that's fair, because I have Breathes Air, which also costs 0 points; and a hypothetical Neptunian would have, say, Breathes Methane, also for 0 points. If a spirit looks like a person, and has nostrils and the ability to inhale and exhale, and needs to do so to tap the flow of mana or chi or whatever through the spirit plane's analog of air, it seems that it ought not to need to pay for the ability Breathes Pneuma.

Bill Stoddard
Sure, some abilities will cost nothing, effectively being 0 pt abilities (like your Gills example), but spirits typically have some abilities which will have a cost (like Unaging or Flight, or even Doesn't Eat/Drink). Like I said, it'll depend on the physics you set up for your spirit world.
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:35 PM   #10
whswhs
 
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Default Re: a puzzle about spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerander
If they enter in body, how dangerous is the different "physics" of the Spirit Realm to that body? Are their bodies automatically translated into "spirit stuff" to survive there or will they need to bring some form of protection (air tanks, food, force fields...)?
I think that the spirit realm is not destructive to the body, because translation into the spirit realm automatically puts the physical body on hold, except as a life support unit for the spiritual body, perhaps. But it may be seriously destructive to the mind, if you don't have the ability to find your way around a landscape governed by similarity rather than causality. Think about the weird transitions of dreams. . . .
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