Dodgin' Bullets

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Yes, looking at time rather than speed would be the most realistic approach, but a speed penalty can still be useful as an approximate value in situations where the distance to the attacker is neither exceptionally long or short.

Perhaps something like these might be reasonable values for Dodge penalties/bonuses

4 seconds: +12
2 seconds: +8
1 seconds: +4
0.5 seconds: +0
0.25 seconds: -4
0.125 seconds: -8
0.0625 seconds: -12

FWIW, the fastest "response to click" reaction time recorded is around 0.1seconds, and a more typical one is 0.2s.

And because I love the SSR table, here's a reaction table in seconds and milliseconds based on your suggestions. :-)

Time Bonus
10 12
8 11
7 10
6 9
5 8
4 7
3 6
3 5
2.2 4
1.8 3
1.5 2
1.2 1
1.0 0
825ms -1
681ms -2
562ms -3
464ms -4
383ms -5
316ms -6
261ms -7
215ms -8
178ms -9
147ms -10
121ms -11
100ms -12

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Nah, at the low end it's all dominated by reaction time anyway, which is adding around 200 ms. I'd probably just go with 'base of -4, +8 per second' or something similar.

So, you don't think that reaction time (for the purpose of dodging attacks) should be determined from how high your Dodge is?

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that -4 would be the largest possible penalty? That seems rather small. There are situations where superhuman speed would allow you to move out of the path of attacks that no realistic human could avoid. It seems more reasonable if the penalty went to infinity as the time approach your reaction time.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Andreas

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that -4 would be the largest possible penalty?

Yes, unless the shooter is using a technique or superpower to adjust timing down -- you can dodge before the bullet is actually fired.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Yes, unless the shooter is using a technique or superpower to adjust timing down -- you can dodge before the bullet is actually fired.

The time we disccused is "how long before impact can you determine where the projectile is going to hit", I don't see how whether you notice before or after the bullet is fired is relevant.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Andreas

The time we disccused is "how long before impact can you determine where the projectile is going to hit", I don't see how whether you notice before or after the bullet is fired is relevant.

So add 0.2s to all travel times (representing target acquisition and aiming), making the penalty max out at -4?

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Anthony

So add 0.2s to all travel times (representing target acquisition and aiming), making the penalty max out at -4?

Why should we do that? The one who dodges might not even be able to see the attacker. The projectile might just be spotted while in flight. You could just reduce the penalty for the dodge roll if the defender gets 0.2 extra seconds due to aim dodging like that.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

FWIW, the fastest "response to click" reaction time recorded is around 0.1seconds, and a more typical one is 0.2s.

And because I love the SSR table, here's a reaction table in seconds and milliseconds based on your suggestions. :-)

Time Bonus
10 12
8 11
7 10
6 9
5 8
4 7
3 6
3 5
2.2 4
1.8 3
1.5 2
1.2 1
1.0 0
825ms -1
681ms -2
562ms -3
464ms -4
383ms -5
316ms -6
261ms -7
215ms -8
178ms -9
147ms -10
121ms -11
100ms -12

Hm, you might be right in that my suggested penalties were too low. A basic character with 10s in all stats, being able to dodge 50% of the time in 0.7 seconds might have been too optimistic. I did few tests, but perhaps I should have assigned myself a bonus for very good conditions.

Still, almost doubling the time seems a little too much.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Why should we do that? The one who dodges might not even be able to see the attacker.

So what?

Realistically, there's three separate things that are vaguely covered by dodging, and they all have somewhat different realistic mechanics:

1. If the target moves in an unexpected way while the attacker is aiming, and the attacker fails to correct, the attack misses. Skill can correct for this. Projectile speed has absolutely no effect.
2. If the target moves in an unexpected way while the projectile is in flight, the attack misses. Skill cannot correct for this. Projectile speed affects this.
3. If the target is aware of the attack, he can deliberately move in an unexpected way. Otherwise, he can only accidentally or randomly do so.

It generally takes human responses on the order of 200 ms to do (1), above, so if time of flight is less than that, missing is dominated by shooter error.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Anthony

So what?

Realistically, there's three separate things that are vaguely covered by dodging, and they all have somewhat different realistic mechanics:

1. If the target moves in an unexpected way while the attacker is aiming, and the attacker fails to correct, the attack misses. Skill can correct for this. Projectile speed has absolutely no effect.
2. If the target moves in an unexpected way while the projectile is in flight, the attack misses. Skill cannot correct for this. Projectile speed affects this.
3. If the target is aware of the attack, he can deliberately move in an unexpected way. Otherwise, he can only accidentally or randomly do so.

It generally takes human responses on the order of 200 ms to do (1), above, so if time of flight is less than that, missing is dominated by shooter error.

The target might not be moving erraticaly while the attacker is aiming or the attacker might even be firing randomly.

1. is not a dominant factor in those cases and it should be better handled as a penalty to the attack roll anyway.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Andreas

The target might not be moving erraticaly while the attacker is aiming or the attacker might even be firing randomly.

That's covered by suppression fire.

Originally Posted by Andreas

1. is not a dominant factor in those cases and it should be better handled as a penalty to the attack roll anyway.

Actually, it should be handled by not making an attack roll, or by targeting an area rather than a character.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That's covered by suppression fire.

Actually, it should be handled by not making an attack roll, or by targeting an area rather than a character.

Yes, firing randomly can be handled by something similiar to suppression fire, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Why does it matter if the suppression fire rules are used or not? As far as I understand it, dodging works the same against suppression fire as against other attacks.

I meant that erratic moment while the attacker is aiming should be better handled as a penalty to the attack roll than as a part of the dodge attempt.