[DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

[Inky]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

The high cost of an unenchanted crystal ball in-setting might be due to the fact that glass was harder to make, and thus more expensive, in medieval Europe.

Originally Posted by Tymathee

Well made crystal glass vials go for just a mere $5 according to the DF's Adventurers book. A quality glass bottle at that cheap of price seems to suggest that DF's "implied vaguely defined kitchen-sink fantasy setting" is capable of producing such glass items very, very cheaply. The aforementioned hand mirror seems absurdly cheap for a faux-medieval setting, and by RAW it allows Crystal-Gazing at no penalty to skill without need of enchantment. So I interpreted what appears to be in need of errata as an oversight of the authors. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"Crystal ball" didn't mean crystal glass (at least, not always), it meant literal clear quartz crystal (also known as rock crystal). That may be the type DF was thinking of. (The large ones used by stage fortune-tellers or sold to tourists usually are glass, but they're said to be "not as good".) Small pieces of rock crystal are cheap as chips, but I get the impression that the price goes up steeply for larger pieces if you need them to still be free from significant flaws - the largest truly flawless crystal ball in the world is only 32cm across.

Prices appear to have less to do with any predictable "market value" and more to do with what's available and how much cheek the seller has, which would probably be true in DF's world too. A quick search turned up 4cm rock crystal spheres for £35 each (fairly clear, though not flawless), a badly flawed 6cm sphere (more like fairly clear ice than glass) for £155, 3cm faceted spheres (slightly less flawed) for £8, 3cm faceted eggs (very clear) for £68 for a pack of 32 as a "one-time clearance offer", a 3cm sphere described as "B grade. Good value but not 'clear'" for £10, and a 15cm crystal skull for £496!
So GURPS$2000 makes sense if it actually means a big crystal ball of the kind fortune-tellers are usually shown with, and (unlike most fortune-tellers') made of real crystal. Such a thing would be very rare - historically, big ones like that were often among the treasures of royalty. Interesting subject.

Little crystal balls do seem to have been used quite a lot historically. There are a lot in Scotland (often heirlooms of some aristocratic family or other), and John Dee had one about 5cm across which it's recorded that he did use for scrying among other things.
That would certainly be a lot more affordable and easier to find than the six-inch ones of cartoons and seaside sideshows, and also more convenient for an adventurer to carry about - but, on the other hand, nothing like as good for posing sinisterly with.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Inky

*snip*

Little crystal balls do seem to have been used quite a lot historically. There are a lot in Scotland (often heirlooms of some aristocratic family or other), and John Dee had one about 5cm across which it's recorded that he did use for scrying among other things.
That would certainly be a lot more affordable and easier to find than the six-inch ones of cartoons and seaside sideshows, and also more convenient for an adventurer to carry about - but, on the other hand, nothing like as good for posing sinisterly with.

Originally Posted by GURPS Magic, pg. 108

Crystal-Gazing is the use of a crystal ball (p. 71) or mirror to facilitate a divinatory vision.

This is where I got the "unenchanted hand mirror for Crystal-Gazing at no penalty" idea from. The Crystal-Gazing enchantment is unambiguous in the fact it can only enchant whatever might be defined as a "crystal ball", which may or may not include faux ones just made out of glass and not genuine clear quartz crystal (GM's discretion here I suppose). The above quote, if interpreted literally, would mean the cheap but somehow good quality hand mirror you can pick up for $15 with no enchantment would let you perform divination at no penalty to skill. It would only be fair then to say, contrary to the Crystal-Gazing enchantment's rules as written, that the 2" ball would let you perform your divination at no penalty with no enchantment as well. This still leaves the price issue though, at $1000, which makes little sense if you could just buy a hand mirror at a far lower price. The $20 seems like just about right. This also makes it no more or less expensive than the other divination spells that require cheap occult divination tools, like the Ouija board or the Tarot deck.

The cheap crystal ball may or may not be realistic for DF's level of realism, but when 250 characters are arguably operating at a cinematic level of realism (I'm looking at you, Heroic Archer trait on the Scout template. Unashamed Peter Jackson's LOTR/The Hobbit-esque action!), a lot of those realistic assumptions could probably be hand waived.

That's sound enough logical reasoning I think. It certainly is a neat discussion point, and was definitely something I wanted to discuss. :)

[Inky]

Yes, DF does seem to do what it likes with realism! Depends what works best!

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Inky

Yes, DF does seem to do what it likes with realism! Depends what works best!

Hmm, yeah. The discrepancies make my brain itchy though. Realized it does say "flawless crystal" in the description for Crystal-Gazing enchantment, so no faux-ball. Bah! I still say for the sake of cohesive mechanics my prior reasoning still stands. I know setting assumptions do matter but my inner game-design cruncher wants the crunch to make sense so the fluff can make sense. What's so special about mirrors that makes them better than a crystal ball? Mirror so good it doesn't need enchantment, ball needs enchantment. Harrumph! It flies in the face of the trope of the crystal ball being the choice item for crystal-gazing... it's what the spell is named after!

*incomprehensible grumbling*

[Tymathee]

Just some brainstorming for some alternative fixes to Crystal-Gazing.

1) A simple solution is to simply house-rule that mirrors are not an option for use with Crystal-Gazing.

2) Work out a alternative spell description for the Crystal-Gazing enchantment to accommodate the enchantment of mirrors. This would also necessitate stat'ing up a series of special divination mirrors suited for the enchantment that follow the price scheme for the crystal balls, so as to leave the mundane mirrors (like the hand mirror) as affordable adventuring gear.

3) Write up a separate "Mirror-Gazing" enchantment compatible with the Crystal-Gazing divination spell. Still would need those special-made mirrors statted for the previous option.

Option 1 requires the least amount of homebrewing, and I'd probably prefer that. Me being me though I like the solution I've already arrived at with just dropping the need for enchantment for the no penalty benefit for the 2" crystal ball, and dropping its pricing to roughly be competitive with the hand mirror. It leaves the fluff intact, as mirrors thematically make sense for Crystal-Gazing. It also means I won't have to do the point-shuffle dance to figure out how to reallocate points for Signature Gear.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

1) A simple solution is to simply house-rule that mirrors are not an option for use with Crystal-Gazing.

An alternative, flavorful option would be to limit divination via mirror to view things from other reflective surfaces (perhaps limited further to mirrors using the same metal - IIRC, typically silver for TL Ye Olden Tymes). Note I don't use (or even have) GURPS Magic, so I'm assuming Crystal-Gazing functions like the Clairsentience Advantage (displacing - or perhaps duplicating - your senses elsewhere), possibly with a time-travel component (for viewing future/past events), and am suggesting using a crystal ball lets you basically place your senses anywhere/anywhen (within the limits of the spell) while using a mirror only lets you view a time and place where a reflective surface is present, and only view it from said reflective surface. If crystal balls work for more senses than just sight, a magic mirror should probably be limited to sight-only.

Cheaper crystal balls also work, of course. And note, given each [1] in Signature Gear gives $500 worth of stuff, you could simply halve the canonical cost of a crystal ball (to $500) rather than dividing by 50 (for $20) and still be able to afford it with a single point.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Varyon

An alternative, flavorful option would be to limit divination via mirror to view things from other reflective surfaces (perhaps limited further to mirrors using the same metal - IIRC, typically silver for TL Ye Olden Tymes). Note I don't use (or even have) GURPS Magic, so I'm assuming Crystal-Gazing functions like the Clairsentience Advantage (displacing - or perhaps duplicating - your senses elsewhere), possibly with a time-travel component (for viewing future/past events), and am suggesting using a crystal ball lets you basically place your senses anywhere/anywhen (within the limits of the spell) while using a mirror only lets you view a time and place where a reflective surface is present, and only view it from said reflective surface. If crystal balls work for more senses than just sight, a magic mirror should probably be limited to sight-only.

Cheaper crystal balls also work, of course. And note, given each [1] in Signature Gear gives $500 worth of stuff, you could simply halve the canonical cost of a crystal ball (to $500) rather than dividing by 50 (for $20) and still be able to afford it with a single point.

GURPS Magic gives us the following for the Crystal-Gazing specialty of Divination:

Originally Posted by GURPS Magic, pg. 108

... the GM describes a scene; it is up to the player to interpret it!

As well as this for Divination specialties in general:

Originally Posted by GURPS Magic, pg. 108

Gives the caster a vision relevant to his question, or the answer to one yes or no question.

It's largely loosely defined, and GURPS Magic mostly leaves it at the GM's whim as to how informative or how the players are supposed to be able to interpret what their attempts at divination provides. Crystal-Gazing just gives you a vision displayed in the crystal ball or mirror (it seems that they want it to be inferred that it's a literal man-made mirror needing to be used, not just any reflective surface, but I guess that's another GM discretion thing).

See, I love the concept of Spells-as-Skills, and for the most part GURPS Magic succeeds at that. It's also the default magic system that DF utilizes, which I also really like. However, GURPS Magic contains a lot of legacy material ported over from older editions that in many ways doesn't live up to GURPS's bigger picture of 4E-isms and sensibilities. The Divination spells are pretty much fine as is, but Crystal-Gazing in particular appears to suffer from rules crunch negligence. As written there's no reason why any adventurer in their right mind would want to waste money on a very expensive crystal ball... that needs a enchantment to function with the Crystal-Gazing specialty of Divination, with more dedicated enchantment providing a bonus to skill. DF characters, including Wizards, are thematically within genre real penny pinchers when it comes to their equipment load outs. The smart adventurer (and player) is going to buy that dirt cheap hand mirror and just invest points into their Crystal-Gazing if they want more skill with it.

[Tymathee]

Here's more of the content cut from the Designer's Notes!

An astute observer might notice that Oswald is lacking the -25 point Dependency on Mana, which is typically used to model the nature of mana dependent creatures or races (like the Faerie Folk) or undead whos immortality hinges on the magic that made them so, like liches.

DF's Power-Ups supplement provides Faerie Folk the Inner Light trait to gradually or entirely buy off their Dependency on Mana. Following that logic, it would be sensible to allow a Lich to have the same with the serial numbers filed off, "Inner Darkness".

It's totally thematically appropriate for Liches to take whatever measures to ensure their continued immortality, and Oswald has done so during his time as a lich.

Some meta-balance commentary...while I acknowledge that No Mana Zones are a totally valid means of hosing Wizards, my inner pouty player says it'd be more responsible of the GM to gatekeep spell selection at char gen and then only permit the more problematic spells (that would warrant the No Mana Zone) as they see fit. I know such zones are there for world building reasons, but its also a meta countermeasure against magic gone wild. Curb the spells, I say, then implement No Mana Zones if at all after that!

Oswald has a good spell selection, some picks more munchkinny than others. Umbrella might help keep any books or scrolls dry while adventuring, and its also the kind of quirky spell I'd see a eccentric lich like Oswald would want to know. I think characterization is important in spell selection as much as practicality. While he has some very good spells, it's definitely not nearly as abusive as it could be right out of the gate... I purposely avoided spells like Great Haste (the kind of spell I'd advise the GM to gatekeep Wizards from having right away).

Even without the Dependency, there does need to be some other alternative to curbing magic... enter Weirdness Magnet. Evil is selfish, and self-serving, and even the Evil Wizards who'd seek to appease the forces of Evil to use its power to their benefit are just tools in the grander schemes of Evil. More Evil Wizards means more Weirdness Magnets, which means more potential for a critical massing of Evil drawn together. If for in game reasons a Evil Wizard loses their Weirdness Magnet, they lose access to that yummy naughty ER that Evil has within them... they're no longer unwitting tools to further amass more Evil.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

Part 1

Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) 24 [24]
Magery 6 (Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) Only, -80%) [17]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

He literally can only use his LER (BM) to power his spells, nothing else. A regular Wizard has his FP to spend, HP to burn, his Power Item to use, any gifted energy... Oswald isn't working with any of that. -80% seems perfectly reasonable.

I wouldn't allow those.

The "one style only" perk ER is costed assuming you respect the magic perk purchase restrictions !
If you waive this, you no longer qualify for the discounted price, imho.

So, ER(Black Magic, -40%; abilities only, -10%) [1.5/point] instead.

As for Magery, Can’t Use External Energy is -15% per Thaumathology p23, not -80%.
Not being able to burn hp is perhaps worth an additional -5% to -10%.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I wouldn't allow those.

The "one style only" perk ER is costed assuming you respect the magic perk purchase restrictions !
If you waive this, you no longer qualify for the discounted price, imho.

So, ER(Black Magic, -40%; abilities only, -10%) [1.5/point] instead.

As for Magery, Can’t Use External Energy is -15% per Thaumathology p23, not -80%.
Not being able to burn hp is perhaps worth an additional -5% to -10%.

From a fluff point, its valid for Evil to care less how skilled you are at magic, it just wants someone who'd be incentivized by deeper energy stores to commit more acts of great evil. LER (BM) is balanced around the substituted -40% that's in it, in place of One Style Only. It might be -40% in limitations, but the implications ripple out in a way that goes beyond just what being limited to a single magical style entails.

There's the fact that Paut is something you can likely buy at any Ye Olde Magic Shoppe in Town, a guaranteed Power Item (Wizards get this right at character creation!) you can have right from the start that you can top off any time you stop at Town... external sources for energy are highly ubiquitous to DF. The rules for Can't Use External Energy accommodate these kinds of considerations when it comes to increasing the value of the modifier. You're argument against the -80% on Magery would make more sense if it took into consideration the genre assumptions of DF.