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Old 07-13-2018, 09:06 PM   #1
Steve Jackson
President and EIC
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Advanced Combat Skills

Guy and I both think these are about right. I'm presenting them all together because we want some approximate balance between masters of the various combat forms. This did not write itself, but perhaps we are close now.

Sorry about the length . . .

UC 1 is found at IQ 9.
UC 2, 3 = IQ 10.
UC 4 = IQ 11
UC 5 = IQ 12.

Unarmed Combat (1). Basic martial arts, similar to judo, karate, la savate, etc. A figure with this skill can:
• Punch. Does one extra hit of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at -2, but do one extra die of damage compared to a bare-hands attack.
Note: To use this skill – or any of the higher-level Unarmed Combat skills – a figure must be unarmored, or wearing cloth armor only, and have both hands free. No “unskilled” use of unarmored combat talents is allowed. A martial artist should not expect to best a prepared, armed and armored foe, but is far more prepared for an impromptu, unarmed battle.

Unarmed Combat II (1). As U.C. I, except:
• Punch. Does two extra hits of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at -1, but do one extra die of damage compared to a bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but if your target falls, you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. Attacks from your front hexes are at -1, and damage done to you is reduced by 1 hit per attack.
Prerequisites: U.C. I and a DX of 10 or more.

Unarmed Combat III (2). As U.C. II, except:
• Punch. Does 1 die extra damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at your adjDX and do one extra die of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but the opponent’s roll to defend is on 4 dice. If your target falls, they take 2 hits (armor does not protect) and you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. Attacks from your front hexes are at -2, and damage done to you is reduced by 2 hits per attack. If you take the Defend option, your attacker must roll an extra die to hit you.
Prerequisites: U.C. II, DX 11 or more.

Unarmed Combat IV (2). As U.C. III, except:
• Punch. Does 1d+2 extra die of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at your adjDX and do one extra die of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but the opponent’s roll to defend is on 4 dice. If your target falls, they take 1 hit (armor does not protect) and you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. You have a natural “eyes-behind” (like the spell) at all times. Your side hexes count as front hexes, and your rear hex counts as a side hex. Attacks from all your front hexes are at -3, and damage done to you is reduced by 3 hits per attack. If you take the Defend option, your attacker must roll two extra dice to hit you.
Prerequisite: U.C. III, DX 12 or more.

Unarmed Combat V (3). Mastery of martial arts. As U.C. IV, except:
• Punch. Does 2 extra dice of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat, or make two rapid blows against the same or different foes with one extra die of damage each.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at your adjDX and do one extra die of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but the opponent’s roll to defend is on 4 dice. If your target falls, they take 2 hits (armor does not protect) and you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. All your hexes count as front hexes. Attacks from adjacent hexes are at -3, and damage done to you is reduced by 4 hits per attack. If you take the Defend option, your attacker must roll three extra dice to hit you.
• Nerve blows. If you strike an armed foe for more than 3 points of damage, that foe is hit on a nerve and automatically drops his weapon.
Prerequisites: U.C. IV, DX 12 or more.

----

Weapon Expertise (3) - found at IQ 10
Expertise is a separate talent for each Weapon talent. For instance, an Expert Swordsman gets no bonus with axes or maces. Expertise applies only to hand weapons, but see the Missile Weapons skill.
Expertise with the dagger is a separate Expertise talent from expertise with the sword. Expertise with the sword also does not include fencing weapons, which have their own Expertise (see below).
• Bonus to hit. An Expert gets +1 DX on each attack with that weapon type, including thrown attacks if the weapon is throwable.
• Bonus to defend. All attacks against an Expert who has weapon in hand are at -1. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll an extra die when attacking.
• Shrewd blow. An Expert may attack at -3 DX and do an extra die of damage.
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon talent, DX 11 or more

Weapon Mastery (3): - found at IQ 12
Mastery is a separate talent for each Weapon talent. For instance, a Master Swordsman gets no bonus with axes or maces. Mastery with the dagger is also separate from mastery with the sword. Bonuses from Mastery do not stack with those from Expertise!
• Bonus to hit. A Master gets +2 DX on each attack with that weapon type, including thrown attacks if the weapon is throwable.
• Bonus to defend. All attacks against a Master who has weapon in hand are at -3. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll two extra dice when attacking.
• Disarming. Against a weapon of the same type, or any weapon requiring the same or less ST as his own, a Master may strike to disarm. Announce that the attack is to disarm, and make the regular to-hit roll. On a success, the foe must roll 3/DX (2/DX for Experts, automatic for Masters) to retain his weapon; otherwise, it is dropped.
• Shrewd blow. A Master may attack at -2 DX and do an extra 1d+2 of damage.
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon expertise, DX 12 or more


Expert Fencer (3): Equivalent of Weapon Expertise, specifically for the fencing weapons: rapier, saber, (treat as cutlass), and main-gauche. Your basic DX must be at least 12, and your armor may not reduce your adjDX below 12 when you use the ability.
• Bonus to hit. An Expert Fencer gets +1 DX on each attack with any fencing weapon, including main-gauche.
• Bonus to defend. All attacks against an Expert who has weapon(s) in hand are at -1. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll an extra die when attacking.
• Two weapons. The Expert has the Two Weapons talent, as defined below, for fencing weapons only.
• Shrewd thrust. An Expert may attack at -3 DX and do an extra die of damage.
Prerequisite: Sword talent, DX 11 or more

found at IQ 12
Master Fencer (3): Equivalent of Weapon Expertise, specifically for the fencing weapons: rapier, saber (treat as cutlass), main-gauche. Your basic DX must be at least 12, and your armor may not reduce your adjDX below 12 when you use the ability.
Bonuses from Mastery do not stack with those from Expertise!
• Bonus to hit. A Master gets +2 DX on each attack with rapier, saber, or main-gauche.
• Bonus to defend. All attacks against a Master who has weapon in hand are at -3. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll two extra dice when attacking.
• Disarming. Against a weapon of the same type, or any weapon requiring the same or less ST as his own, a Master may strike to disarm. Announce that the attack is to disarm, and make the regular to-hit roll. On a success, the foe must roll 3/DX (2/DX for Experts, automatic for Masters) to retain his weapon; otherwise, it is dropped.
• Two weapons. The Master has the Two Weapons talent, as defined below, for fencing weapons only.
• Shrewd thrust. A Master may attack at -2 DX and do an extra 1d+2 of damage.
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon expertise, DX 12 or more


Missile Weapons (1). A high degree of skill with whatever missile weapons the figure has the talent for, attained by constant practice. May also be used with missile spells which the figure knows. This talent gives the user a +1 DX on all missile weapons (and spells!) that he knows. Missile Weapons talent can be chosen two or even three times, for a +2 or +3 bonus.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:00 PM   #2
Wayne
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Geelong, Australia
Default Re: Advanced Combat Skills

That's really clear and easy to understand. However being pedantic I'd like a listing of those weapon talents in (only) the first weapon expertise description.

Expertise is a separate talent for each Weapon talent (Knife; Sword; Ax/Mace; Pole Weapons; Naginata; Cestus; Quarterstaff; Lasso; Whip; Nunchucks).
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:01 PM   #3
Wayne
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Geelong, Australia
Default Re: Advanced Combat Skills

…of course, I'm not certain what the final list of weapon talents will be!
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:41 PM   #4
JLV
 
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Location: Arizona
Default Re: Advanced Combat Skills

Maybe I'm confused here, but why does UC IV only inflict a single hit on a successfully thrown character, whereas UC III and UC V both inflict two hits? I could see UC III only inflicting a single hit, while IV and V do two, but having the 1 hit in the middle of two talents that both do 2 hits (and one of those higher hit talents being a prerequisite for a less powerful throw) seems a bit odd to me...

Other than that, I REALLY LIKE these new talents. I think it answers the question about improving skills very effectively, and without getting too carried away by figuring out specific schools of martial arts or any of that other stuff. A very nice compromise between GURPS levels of realism and TFT levels of KISS. Well done, Steve.

Last edited by JLV; 07-13-2018 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:56 PM   #5
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Advanced Combat Skills --> UC talents. Rick's comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
...

UC 1 is found at IQ 9.
UC 2, 3 = IQ 10.
UC 4 = IQ 11
UC 5 = IQ 12.

...
Hi Steve, Guy, everyone.
I like these but a couple points.

-- I would prefer if each UC talent was at its own IQ level. So starting at IQ 8 and running to 12 for example.

-- You don't say if the new talent effect replaces the old. For example, if I get UC i, UC ii and UC iii, do I attack for +1 damage, & +2 damage & +1 die of damage for a total of 1d+3? (I assume not, but it does not say.)

-- Do all these talents all fit into the memory slot for UC v, or must you use 9 memory slots?

-- The double punch ability of UC v... Does this require 2 to hit rolls? Are these both at regular DX, or is the first at -4 and the second at -6 DX? (Or is the first at +0 DX and the second at -4 DX?)

-- I think that the total damage by UC v is too much. Let us say that I am doing 1d-2 damage with my fists, and have UC v. With my fists I'm doing +2 dice damage, (and if I kick I'm doing +3 dice damage, so 4d-2). This is better than any weapon on the weapons table, for a low ST figure. If you goal was that it is better to bring a sword, you have over shot.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:44 PM   #6
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Advanced Combat Skills --> Weapon talents. Rick's comments.

Hi Steve, Guy, everyone.
Some comments:

-- Weapons get a bonus, but it would be nice to have talents that improve shields. shields are under powered in TFT, and something to boost them would be nice.

-- People will now be rolling multiple dice to defend. The defend option must describe how critical hits and misses work when defending with multiple dice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
... Bonus to defend. All attacks against an Expert who has weapon in hand are at -1. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll an extra die when attacking. ...
-- What does 'all attacks' mean?
--> Melee attacks?
--> Thrown and or missile attacks?
--> Bullets from guns?
--> Staff shock effects?
--> Magic damage in general?

-- All attacks against you if you have this talent are at -1 damage. This is in a section called 'Bonus to Defend'. Does this -1 damage only work if I am defending? It seems to say not.

-- Rather than giving Expert / Master skills bonuses to DX, why not give +1 and +2 damage? The bell curve makes DX over 13 or 14 a bit problematic, and many talents that give DX bonuses just speed up the point when you are regularly making almost all hits. Also, I've found that with some magic protection, stopping 8 or 10 hits is not that hard to reach. With these talents higher armour will be just that much easier. Weapons that do extra damage would help offset this.

-- I really like the bonus damage for the shrewd blow, but the bonus damage is too high for the DX penalty. Why would anyone ever NOT do a shrewd blow? I would suggest that the DX penalty is -6 for experts and -3 DX for masters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
... Disarming. Against a weapon of the same type, or any weapon requiring the same or less ST as his own, a Master may strike to disarm. Announce that the attack is to disarm, and make the regular to-hit roll. On a success, the foe must roll 3/DX (2/DX for Experts, automatic for Masters) to retain his weapon; ...
-- The last sentence is unclear to me. Do you mean if the FOE has Expert talent they roll 2vsDX? If the FOE has Master talents, they can't be disarmed this way?

-- The wording of the Fencing talents is virtually identical to the Weapons Expert and Weapons Mastery. Is it worth having so many repeated words? Why not just put into Weapons Expertise, that if you buy Sword Expertise then it includes the Two Weapons talent for free, so long as you use only rapiers, sabres and main gauche.

-- The Fencing talent in the old TFT was cool (doing x2 and x3 damage more often). But I notice that Fencing Expertise does not have Fencing as a prerequisite. I hope the old Fencing ability is not going away. (It could be that the old Fencing made swords the dominate weapon. But a cool new talent that allows the Fencing ability for all weapons could be created.)

-- Does Sword, Sword Expertise, & Sword Mastery all fit in the same memory slot?

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-13-2018 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:47 PM   #7
JLV
 
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Location: Arizona
Default Re: Advanced Combat Skills

I thought Steve said elsewhere that UC talents effects don't stack.
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:55 AM   #8
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Advanced Combat Skills

The kick attacks look strangely over-done to me.

* +1 die damage for a kick?
* UC I ST 11 damage is 2d-1? -2 DX ok, but it does as much as the shortsword or mace the person would otherwise use?
* UC III is +1 die for a punch?
* UC III is +2 die total for a kick? So a ST 13 person with UC III does 3d-1 with a kick, the same damage as a ST 14 2-handed sword??? ST 11 UC III is 3d-2, the same as a ST 13 bastard sword...
* UC IV ST 11 kick is 3d... (same as the new maximum for lightning bolts?)
* UV V ST 11 kick is 4d-2...
* UC III-V kicks have zero DX (or other) penalty compared to punches? So why would someone ever punch except in HTH where I imagine you can't kick?

Old UC I to III seemed non-cinematic to me. These seem like you're trying to make UC above level I or maybe II represent cinematic UC characters that actually really can beat fully armed soldiers. If this isn't a mistake, what is the design intent?


I do like that there are some advanced non-UC talents, and that there are some defensive DX adjustments. And I like that the throw attacks give some way to get more than an effect that is stopped by a 3/ST roll (though even with the damage and HTH tweaks, it's still no good if you let the victim immediately stand up before you can hit them again or run away).

It looks like the Fencing talents are the same as the Weapon talents, and that the only reason for listing them separately is to split the Sword talent? Is there a distinction I missed?


Judgement may be quite premature at this point, but it seems odd to me that we nerfed pole weapon damage and missile spell damage, and now are boosting weapon damage, and UC damage even more... so heavy polearm charges go from doing 4d or 4d+4 down to 2d+2, and UC goes from doing like 1d+1 for UC V ST 11 up to 4d-2?
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:26 AM   #9
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Advanced Combat Skills

I expressed concern about these matters before. Can I ask Steve and team if they've actually been playtesting these rules or if they've just thought about them? I think before changes like this are made I'd like to be sure they weren't imbalanced. Given the short time to the KS launch is there really enough time to give these changes enough actual testing?
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:36 AM   #10
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: Advanced Combat Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post

found at IQ 12
Master Fencer (3): Equivalent of Weapon Expertise, specifically for the fencing weapons: rapier, saber (treat as cutlass), main-gauche. Your basic DX must be at least 12, and your armor may not reduce your adjDX below 12 when you use the ability.
Shouldn't it be Equivalent of Weapon Mastery ?

Same with the prerequisite, Shouldn't it be Expert Fencer ?
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