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Old 03-01-2017, 09:02 PM   #41
dwalend
 
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
MHWZ almost always gets first shot vs SHVY and so wins 5/9ths of the time. (W/o partial damage.)
... unless the SHVY takes an M3 detour around it while smaller targets like LTs take their lumps. The SHVY decides when (and if) to engage.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:42 PM   #42
dwalend
 
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by Buzzardo View Post
Anyway, I keep coming back to a value of 2 AU for a SHVY.
If you haven't tried SHVY vs INF, try taking a pair of SHVYs as flankers against enemy INF positions holding a line. The SHVY's not-quite-an-ogre package works really well. After seeing that I think they're a bargain at 2 AU.

For the opening shots the SHVY can pick the place. They can stand off at R3 and make 1:1 shots at a 3INF. If the INF are in swamp or the woods then the SHVY can combine its two big guns together for 1:1 attacks. If the INF want to respond then its pretty easy to place the SHVY in a spot where the INF will be in the clear for their R1 attack. (Or they stay put and the SHVY shell them without reprisal.)

Then they face a both the big guns and the 2 APs. Or the SHVYs cackle and roll back to use just the big guns on INF in the clear.

For their reprisal, the INF have to overcome D5. If they've less than 5 INF then they are making an ineffective 1:2 attack. If less than 2 INF it's just a mopping up operation. The SHVY can even overrun a lone INF without fear.

At D5 it is relatively safe to stack a pair of SHVYs. An effective spill-over attack will draw 10 attack factors from something else - if they are even available.

Overrunning a SHVY with INF is very hard. Those AP guns are doubled, so the INF will face two 3:1 attacks (kills) and two 2:1 attacks (likely kills). You'd need to send 7 INF in for a 1:1 attack.

Compare to a pair of MSLs - two targets, same long gun attack factors with one hex more range. But it's M2, light-tracked, no AP guns, and at D2 is vulnerable to even a loan INF. Stacking the MSLs is risky.

At 2 AU the only time to choose 2 MSLs over 1 SHVY is when you need to supply many targets for your enemy's guns. In those cases 4 LTs (or 4 LGEVs) are an even better choice.

The SHVY's complete versatility advantage over a pair of MSLs (caveat a role that LTs or LGEVs fill better) is why I think 15 VPs - 2.5 AUs - is the right value.
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Old 03-02-2017, 03:04 AM   #43
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by Belle Sorciere View Post
I've seen as a suggestion in a few places a possible 25% armor limit on any one unit. I think I first saw this as a suggestion to avoid the fuzzy wuzzy fallacy (lots of GEVs against one ogre). It is applicable beyond that, of course.
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Originally Posted by brettd View Post
I'd favor an optional "no more than 25%" limit on all specific unit types not included in the original OGRE (HVY, MSL, GEV, HOW, INF). That would give a sense that these were the "core" units of any army, although it would still be easy not to buy any (25% each SHVY, LT, LGEV, MHOW, etc...). If someone wants to go pure GEV or HVY, let them. Nobody is going to go pure MSL anyway....
I'd like to see this made official as an optional rule for the reasons you mention. This rule would be mutually agreed upon to use or not in the game at hand, or mandatory as part of a Scenario.
_________________________________

"OGRE MARK 1
The first and smallest of the Ogres, dating from 2060...The first cybernetic tank, the Mark 1, was a direct line development of the Combine's advanced battle tanks...the Mark 1 was intended as a battle-line unit, but proved not to be cost-effective in that role. Although hard to kill, it was too easy - relative to the huge cost of the cybernetic brain - to put it out of action. However, the Mark 1 remained in regular production as long as the Combine lasted, simply because it was the only Ogre small enough to be transported by conventional means. It proved to be effective as a light raider unit in terrain where human troops did not perform well, such as remote jungles and tundra. Perhaps a larger Ogre would have been even better...but often they couldn't get there.
"
OGRE MINIATURES page 9

"2060
Ogre Mark 1 enters production
."
OGRE MINIATURES page 50

"The first Superheavies were designed by the Paneuropeans, and intended to match - more cheaply the Ogre Mark 1. In fact, the human-controlled units weren't the equal of the cybertanks in performance, but they were enough cheaper that they proved viable. In 2083 the Combine put it's own (very similar) superheavy design into production."
OGRE MINIATURES page 14

"2082-2084
Ogre-vs-Ogre combat becomes common. The "Ceasefire years" - constant battle across Europe, interrupted by 88 different ceasefires, as the Combine is gradually driven off the continent.
"
OGRE MINIATURES page 51

Combine produced the first Ogre Mark 1 in 2060.
Paneurope, in response to this, produced the first Superheavy Tank in 2078 some 18 years later.
In 2083, some 23 years later, Combine produced it's own Superheavy.

Imho, the background fluff tells us why the SHY is valued at AU2 and the AU3. They are supposed to be a better bargain over a Mark1, which is precisely why Combine, after fielding Mark1s first in 2060, then some 23 years after Paneurope first fielded the SHY decided they had better field their own SHYs.
In this case, Combine was actually loosing the arms race for those 23 years without realizing their misplaced focus on their "superior" Mark1s over Paneurope's Superheavies. Had Combine Superheavies been produced and fielded earlier, they very well may not have been driven off the continent. I think it no coincidence in the period between 2082-2084 that Combine was driven off the continent they then begin producing their own Superheavies in 2083.

This is where the optional rule to have a Scenario specific unit availability choice or mandate would work well.

I'm ok with it taking at least a platoon of 3 infantry squads to have a 1:2 attack chance...that's a 1 in 6 chance for a D. A D is not insignificant. If that platoon is all the units they have left, then I have no problem calling that a SHY victory...for either the stock D5 SHY or the "Record Sheet" SHY which are both only a OGRE AI package short of being actual OGREs which is also not insignificant.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 03-21-2017 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:20 AM   #44
Ashley
 
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Fascinating, but I'll take practice over theory this time round.

I've demoed and played a lot of games with miniatures using my SHVYT, and quite frankly all the theoretical arguments have yet to appear on the board. A SHVYT is a lot in one small bundle, but it's a lot in one bundle that can't be int two places at once.

So why I recognize the min-max calculations suggest 3AU, the practicalities of covering a battlefield suggest a flexible combat group, and that means a mix of units.

Yes you can argue a formation of SHVYTs is optimum until a scenario that requires speed and numbers and something other than kill all the enemy as the victory conditions pops up.

For me, the answer depends on the type of game one wants to play.

1. Min-max optimum battles or

2. Battles that have a operational context: I know this is very meta for some players to get their heads around.

And one final thing: don't fix what isn't broke.

Bottom line I couldn't care less if a SHVYT is 2 or 3 AU because I will only be fielding them as part of a combined arms force.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:21 AM   #45
Misplaced Buckeye
 
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
... unless the SHVY takes an M3 detour around it while smaller targets like LTs take their lumps. The SHVY decides when (and if) to engage.
Not canon BUT at the Ogre Event our group experimented with prewritten movement and initiative rolls for combat. Actually worked out really well in a multiplayer game. I could see having the HWZ and MHWZ pre select a hex with over flow effect working the same way.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:24 AM   #46
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

I have seen superheavies be really effective in the defense simply by parking on strategic hexes, depending on the scenario.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:06 AM   #47
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
Fascinating, but I'll take practice over theory this time round.
I agree. Which makes our results interesting. I've seen SHVYs run wild in every scenario without Ogres. Are you running with conventional units only or always with Ogres mixed in?
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:21 AM   #48
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by selenite View Post
I agree. Which makes our results interesting. I've seen SHVYs run wild in every scenario without Ogres. Are you running with conventional units only or always with Ogres mixed in?
The only time I see this not happening is on scenarios with large maps and lots of targets for victory conditions, if the player without Superheavies can simply outmaneuver the smaller heavier force. I lost breakthrough like this once.
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Old 03-02-2017, 03:16 PM   #49
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Just curious, but has anyone considered simply making the 13.07 Partial Damage SuperHeavy a "Mark-0" Ogre, used chiefly by the Pan Euro's?

You know, "In their desperation to counter the Combine's early monopoly on Ogres, they took some of their Super Heavies and moded them for autonomous action." (like blocks of BPC where crew spaces used to be): 2x(3/3 D3) SB+'s, 2xAP guns, 18 Treads, Move 3.

This way 1) the "normal" Super remains the "popcorn" all meatbag units are meant to be, 2) the Pans get a new Ogre (yay!) and show they have _some_ inventiveness in them and don't have to copy the Combine in everything OGRE (and with miniatures finally in steady supply there's less need to justify miniature reuse on both sides), and 3) we might also make the original D4 Super the Combine's knock-off version, bringing that one back from the memory hole and for nice contrast making the Combine inferior to the Pans in at least one respect...

Now as to the original point of this discussion: I'm fairly certain most Ogre players are good enough at math that making change on things like 2.5AU or 3AU won't be a problem. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Super should NOT obsolete the Heavy, which along with the MSL and GEV are the rock-papper-scissors of the game. It should be cost balanced so it's taken only when a player thinks he can get the most out of its concentrated fire-power. I'm not a big fan of artificial 25% rules for achieving the same end. It leaves new players wondering "why???". Yes, they'll quickly make up their own house rules -- but EVERYONE always make up their own house-rules. It's no excuse for game developers to be lazy. Units should "sell themselves" on their own merits.

FWIW: Since the CRT is so bloody I haven't noticed much imbalance in the popcorn-Super costing 2AU, though I defer to wiser players who can prove it mathematically -- just saying I haven't 'noticed' much of a problem on a practical level. YMMV. Thus I've been playing with the Super at 2.5 AU so that it is only used when it's "particular set of skills" /Liam Neeson/ are called for. From discussions in this thread I've gathered that it's "real" worth is about 2.5 ... which is 3 AU if we want to keep it a specialist. And I'm fine either way. Again, I don't think the math and half values are a big deal. Yes, 2AU maintains symmetry with the Light Tank ... blah blah blah, but compared to what we're already asking new players to remember about doubling and halving attacks versus SP's, this is nothing IMHO.

Last edited by FJCestero; 03-02-2017 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 03-03-2017, 12:56 AM   #50
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by selenite View Post
I agree. Which makes our results interesting. I've seen SHVYs run wild in every scenario without Ogres. Are you running with conventional units only or always with Ogres mixed in?
What I was referring to were games without Ogres: or mostly, as in the Ogres came in at the end. It was a variant of the ceasefire attack that I called Escalation.

NB: There have been some good ideas posted here, FJCestero for example, and it's now up to TPTB to make a decision–play-testing will no doubt be be involved–and afterwards they can deliver a judgement.
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Last edited by Ashley; 03-03-2017 at 01:32 AM. Reason: Addition
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