Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Board and Card Games > Ogre and G.E.V.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-27-2017, 08:48 AM   #11
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
 
GranitePenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Scribe View Post
Playing around with the Cobb calculator, where costs are calculated in victory points as well as armor units, a superheavy without AP guns costs 12.56 VP, rounded down to 2 AU. Add the antipersonnel, and cost increases to 14.23 VP, which rounds up to 2.5 AU. So I'm fine with either of these values when playing a scenario from the book.
I get 14.93 / 2.5 AU following Henry's own description of how to set it up, not 14.23, but it's worth noting that this is only .07 below 3 AU; more than close enough to round up to 3 AU. That doesn't even take into account partial damage considerations. How did you come up with 14.23?

Quote:
Originally Posted by From www.hcobb.com/gev/unitexamples.html
For the superheavy tank the first and second attacks are strength 3, range 3. The third and fourth attacks are strength one, range one, ap and doubled in overuns. Defense is five, moves as superheavy, movement three hexes, transports 2 Infantry externally (don't check the Internally? box).
Atk 3 Rng 3
Atk 3 Rng 3
Atk 1 Rng 1, AP
Atk 1 Rng 1, AP
D 5 M 3 S

One assumes the text on the Cobb calculator site is old, because The VP value quoted is low compared to what the calculator currently produces
Quote:
Originally Posted by From www.hcobb.com/gev/unitexamples.html
Final cost is 13.59 VPs, 2.5 armor units, as expected.
I would expect the quote to read
Final cost is 14.93 VPs, 3 armor units, as expected.
What it does show is even using old calculations, the SHVY is too cheap at 2 AU.

At 15VP using the current model, it should be 3 AU; maybe even more if using partial damage. I would even be ok, for KISS sake, to just call it a flat 3 AU regardless if using partial damage or not.

EDIT: note the possible bug I found in the calculator (it says 15 VP is 3 AU, when 18 VP is 3 AU). based on that, the better numbers are likely 2.5 AU for a standard SHVY and 3.5 AU for the partial damage SHVY

In any case, it absolutely should not be 2 AU.
__________________
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor

Last edited by GranitePenguin; 02-27-2017 at 09:39 AM. Reason: noting possible calculator error
GranitePenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2017, 09:02 AM   #12
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
 
GranitePenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzardo View Post
Maybe the (house) rule should be that it's 2 AU if one doesn't use the record sheet and 3 AU if one does.
This is not a house rule, it's how the rules are currently written
13.07 Partial Damage for Superheavies. A Superheavy Tank may be treated as a small manned Ogre, with its own record sheet. The ability to survive an X result with only partial damage makes SHVY units considerably tougher. Increase SHVY cost to 3 armor units.
If you follow the Cobb calculator recommendation for handling partial damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by From http://www.hcobb.com/gev/unitexamples.html
To account for partial damage to Superheavy tanks as per 13.07, simply select defense type Ogre/robotic.
You end up with 18.93 VP or 3.5 AU.

With this difference being already admitted, I would offer that the values should be 3 AU for the normal SHVY (the current Cobb calculator cost: 14.93 VP rounded to 15 VP), and at least 3.5 AU for the partial damage SHVY. I'm not a big fan of x.5, but I think it's hard to justify that much of a jump to go to 4 AU.

EDIT: note the possible bug I found in the calculator (it says 15 VP is 3 AU, when 18 VP is 3 AU). based on that, the better numbers are likely 2.5 AU for a standard SHVY and 3.5 AU for the partial damage SHVY
__________________
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor

Last edited by GranitePenguin; 02-27-2017 at 09:18 AM.
GranitePenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2017, 09:11 AM   #13
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
 
GranitePenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
I get 14.93 / 2.5 AU following Henry's own description of how to set it up
Actually, what's interesting (and possibly a bug in the Cobb calculator) is that the calculator says 15VP is 3AU. 3AU should be 18VP, so 2.5 is more accurate.

So I'm thinking, although I'm not a big fan of x.5 for a unit (0.5 units excluded, that's a simple doubling, similar to 2 AU), 2.5 AU for a standard SHVY and 3.5 AU for the partial damage SHVY is probably closer to reality.
__________________
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
GranitePenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2017, 09:38 AM   #14
Buzzardo
 
Buzzardo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
This is not a house rule, it's how the rules are currently written
My bad. Sorry.
__________________
Play Ogre? Want an interactive record sheet?

Want a random dungeon? How about some tables for that? How about a random encounter?
Buzzardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2017, 09:41 AM   #15
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
 
GranitePenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzardo View Post
My bad. Sorry.
No big. I'm not yelling, just surprised myself when I was looking up stuff when numbers started not making sense. :-)
__________________
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
GranitePenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2017, 02:04 PM   #16
brettd
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Agree. I think the standard SHVY should be 2.5. Even 2.33 would be OK (allowing a SHVY and 2Inf for 3AU cost).

If it is any consolation, the current SHVY at 2 is clearly more balanced than the old (D4) SHVY at 2 IMHO.... That jump from D4 to D5 is a seriously large jump - making you immune to single GEV's and 1-2 against HVYs instead of 1-1 for example. The "Old" SHVY at D4 just wasn't a viable unit. That D4 doesn't help much compared to D3. Probably why everyone takes out MB's before 2B's.
brettd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2017, 02:19 PM   #17
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
 
GranitePenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brettd View Post
Agree. I think the standard SHVY should be 2.5. Even 2.33 would be OK (allowing a SHVY and 2Inf for 3AU cost).
ick. I think 2.5 is fiddly enough; getting into 1/3 values is just ugly (although I do like the visual of buying a SHVY + riding INF as a package deal).

Quote:
If it is any consolation, the current SHVY at 2 is clearly more balanced than the old (D4) SHVY at 2 IMHO.... That jump from D4 to D5 is a seriously large jump - making you immune to single GEV's and 1-2 against HVYs instead of 1-1 for example. The "Old" SHVY at D4 just wasn't a viable unit. That D4 doesn't help much compared to D3. Probably why everyone takes out MB's before 2B's.
Whether the old SHVY was viable or not doesn't really matter, though. What matters is making sure the current SHVY isn't at a sale price to make it the obvious choice for most scenarios; to the exclusion of many other units. The only reason I shy away from making the partial SHVY a 4 AU unit is it really should not be the same cost as an Ogre.

Comparing it to a Mark I, they are actually very similar, and in some ways offensively, the SHVY is better than the Ogre; but the Ogre is still a more difficult thing to bring down. You _must_ strip an Ogre, while the SHVY can still be taken out by a single (albeit lucky) shot.
__________________
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
GranitePenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2017, 02:39 PM   #18
dwalend
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
... I'm thinking, although I'm not a big fan of x.5 for a unit (0.5 units excluded, that's a simple doubling, similar to 2 AU), 2.5 AU for a standard SHVY and 3.5 AU for the partial damage SHVY is probably closer to reality.
Sorry I lost the debate during the ODE edit for VP-based numbers instead of AUs. My tears are water over that dam.

I think 2.5 AU sounds right for the SHVY. (I've not got a strong opinion about the optional partial-damage SHVY, but 3.5 seems OK. The rules are too fiddly for my taste, so I haven't built up experience with it. It and an LGEV could be a challenge for a MkI. )

I'd like to see (in some vague future expansion) 1.5-AU units, maybe for Nippon, so the 1/2 AU values are OK by me. We're pretty good at simple fractions in Ogre.
dwalend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2017, 03:07 PM   #19
selenite
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Minnesota
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardF View Post
All of our skirmishes, which have involved the SHVY, have shown it to be balanced well at 2AU,
What are you balancing the 2 AU SHVY against?

A SHVY can take on two HVYs, get the first shot, and probably destroy both of them.

3 INF can overrun a HVY with a 2/3s chance of destroying it (while they lose one squad). 6 INF overrunning a SHVY have a 1/3 chance of destroying it and probably lose 4 squads in the first round.

MSLs and GEVs can't handle terrain as well as a SHVY, so they'll probably lose the first shot.

Ogre missiles are strong against SHVYs, because a 6 attack is an overmatch for most other units.

I vote for a 2.5 AU SHVY cost. There's plenty of LTs for making change as needed.
selenite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2017, 03:22 PM   #20
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
 
GranitePenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
Sorry I lost the debate during the ODE edit for VP-based numbers instead of AUs. My tears are water over that dam.
You and me both. It's not like we didn't try. I would consider an errata update a win, though. :-)
__________________
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
GranitePenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.