How would magic interact with late TL5 naval warfare? & Campaign idea

[seasalt]

1. Philosophy of such a game
I've always been fascinated with the idea of a campaign where the PCs are officers in an end-of-the-19th-century navy, especially one which brings in sci-fi/fantasy elements. I think a big part of this is because I read China Mieville's "Bas Lag Cycle" fantasy novels as a kid, and even though it was just a single chapter, the combination of fantasy elements with steel battleships always fascinated me due to its uniqueness.

Of course, trying to stat out such large vehicles in exacting detail in GURPS is a fool's errand, but I think GURPS is still the best system for such an unusual game, for several reasons.

Firstly, because GURPS Mass Combat is probably the best mass-combat system for an RPG if you want something that emphasizes the narrative rather than wargaming aspects, in my opinion, without just throwing up its hands and abstracting individual units out of existence like, say, Savage Worlds does.

And secondly, the lengthy skill list of GURPS allows for a decent variety among characters who will be in a military command position, with numerous specialized intellectual skills that can provide situational advantages in battles and address a variety of non-combat challenges in campaigns, instead of being compressed into just a few "non-combat skills" like most RPGs.

The question might be asked, why even try to run such a thing? Could it actually be fun? And I think, yes, it might be. On the one hand, naval warfare in this era was highly "arithmetical". If you have more guns, more accurate guns, thicker armor, and better trained crew, you're probably going to win (and more to the point, the enemy probably isn't going to even try to fight you in the first place); there is relatively little room for individual courage or fighting spirit.

But on the other hand this leaves room for emphasizing battles as being a psychological contest and a clash of wills between opposing commanders, where they try to out-guess one another, as well as the importance of maintaining cohesion and morale among one's own subordinates. And, by the nature of a naval fleet, allows the PC commander(s) to travel all over the game world and play a decisive role in wartime politics. I imagine a distribution of gamplay being about 40% internal military politics and challenges, 40% external diplomacy, and only 20% actual battles, keeping them somewhat rare and special and emphasizing the permanence of any losses, friendly or enemy.

2. Which setting elements will make for a good game like this?

Obviously you need to get away from the historical, not only because naval warfare with this level of technology was rare, but also because historical naval hierarchies were too rigid to be fun for gamers. That's where the fantasy elements come in - allowing for "special" player characters to ascend this hierarchy through fantastic talents and inherent traits rather than long decades of service and obedience to authority. If this is a setting where magic exists and archmages and priest-kings have a lot of power, it can produce something more colorful and less stiflingly professional than the historical equivalent. This can also give an excuse for player characters to occasionally get in trouble in person - although positions of military command foreclose "adventuring" there can still be room for the occasional honor duel or palace coup.

I think a good basic idea is for a small group (4 or fewer, 3 would be ideal) of players to represent commanders of a joint task force assembled by nations or factions which have traditionally been rivals or enemies, jockeying for position and influence at the same time as trying to defeat a mutual enemy. This would be an excellent use for the mass-scale social conflict rules in "Social Engineering", and allows for "PVP" to keep things interesting, with the caveat that the players generally aren't trying to kill eachother, but rather to hog glory and advance their home faction at the expense of the others. Ideally the player characters should be put in command of sailors and soldiers who initially dislike and distrust them, and be made to understand that the key to success in battle is getting those troops to trust and respect them, choosing between divergent methods of inspiring admiration, or fear. And have "allies" and governing officials who try to sabotage them, out of greed, ambition, or fear that some player(s) might switch sides - a fear which could very well be justified.

And what might those rival nations and that common enemy be? There are lots of interesting referential options. Imperal Japan analogues who make pacts with spirits of the wind and weather, sun and moon? Tsarist Russian analogues ruled by "deathless" lich-kings and crews of undead slaves? Ottoman analogues with a corrupt and declining empire lashing out, still harnessing the power of mystics with divinatory abilities of 'revelation'? French Empire analogues with royalists represented by wizard families under threat of liberal reformers toppling them with a new emphasis on steel and technology? I think analogues of real 18th and 19th century powers with a fantasy twist are the way to go, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel in the worldbuilding department.

3. Game rule considerations

Okay, enough with spitballing ideas, here's the concrete GURPS related questions. Firstly, would any alterations need to be made to "Mass Combat" to accomodate this sort of thing? My first impression is 'no'; it can represent late TL5 naval forces just fine. Battleships, armored cruisers, protected cruisers, torpedo boats, and torpedo boat destroyers. Maybe throw in an aircraft carrier equivalent which serves as a hangar for dirigibles and/or a roost for flying beasts of war like dragons or griffins? Make bound and summoned sea monsters a part of the equation? Aquatic creatures and humanoids could add an interesting under-water threat to surface ships and threaten them with boarding in a way historical capital ships of this era weren't. None of this really involves altering the rules as written, though, just using what's already there. One of the aforementioned proto-carriers could be created applying the same "half TS for late TL5 version" treatment that the capital ships and destroyers get.

Then the really interesting question: what kinds of magic and supernatural advantages would be particularly useful here, and should be given as options in templates for PCs? Although advantages and spells that make the PCs stronger in personal combat would be nice for color, they would rarely get used, so there should be a category of advantages and spells specifically that would be useful in a large battle situation, since any enemies will be literally miles away.

Per "Mass Combat", with such massive amounts of firepower involved, succeeding in reconaissance and being able to choose not to fight a battle if it is disadvantageous, or to force a battle if it is, would be especially crucial. For starters, I think one of the most important fantastic powers a commander of such a force could have, GURPS-wise, would be clairvoyance, and also possibly the ability to nullify clairvoyance. The weather spells in GURPS magic, which most players probably don't care about, would be very valuable for an admiral or commodore to use - in fact, it's one of the only useful spell schools. Naturally, magic users would need to have a very high level of magery (15+) and large reservoirs of FP to cast spells at a range and a scale where they're relevant to 15,000 ton ships firing shells wtih ranges measured in miles. Light/darkness spells could illuminate (or hide) targets at night. Then there's communication spells, making/breaking spells, maybe movement spells could allow hit-and-run boarding actions... even food spells would be a big deal.

The tricky part here is that it runs up against the blunt "numerical sum" of the Mass Combat system. Instead of just having spellcasters give a generic bonus like the ones in the example section, I think it would be better to classify spellcasters by what kind of spell they're capable of, and assign different values to them. This could be a hassle and is very subjective, but I think it's better than having the same flat value for everyone.

Oh well, this is a long and rambling post. Does anyone here have any thoughts on this stuff? Or examples of something similar having been attempted in any GURPS (or other RPG) setting?

[Refplace]

It all depends on the magic system you go with.
I think the best fit would be a narrative magic system using Impulse Buys. It also works well with wildcard skills if you want those.
Wildcard points and Impulse points can be used to affect die rolls, changing them from failure to success or vice versa. Or you could instead of buying success let them add to die rolls for increased margins.
This is a strategic resource, much like Threshold magic so players will need to choose when to use them and when to save them.
For added flavor Impulse Points could be assigned a certain type of magic, such as a college and the desired result must be explained using that college.
If wildcard colleges are in play that works as above and lets the mages use normal magic for less dramatic tasks.

[Rupert]

That naval warfare between the American Civil War and WWI was fairly rare is, I think, more an accident of history than something innate to the technology. It does make guessing how combat would be conducted a bit tricky though, especially given the rate of change at the time.

One thing to consider - combat between small ships with only one or a few per side was far more common and gunboats, coastal defence boats, and later destroyers and motor torpedo/gun boats are small enough that individual actions and valour can matter.

[ehrbar]

Note that if you've got late TL5 power plants, you've got Draw Power and Teleport Other to teleport bombs. 4,345 hp worth of engine not used for something else will feed a mage 9 energy/second to first cast Air Vision (thus negating any hiding behind smoke, fog, etc.) and then launch 49-lb bombs (likely lightweight cases around more than 40 lbs of HE) to a range of up to 10 miles (dependent, of course, on the height of the mage's optics and thus visual horizon).

Teleport Shield enchantments are of no real use; you have to pay through the nose for height, so the Teleport Other side just aims a bit higher and sets the bomb to fall before detonating.

That, of course, will eliminate small torpedo boats. A torpedo launching platform will have to be big enough to be armored against battering by multiple 49-pound bombs to have a chance to fire its torpedoes.

Against armored vessels, the problem for the teleporters is that even though 40+ pounds of HE is a decent explosion, the teleport doesn't get you through armor. So you're limited to damaging stuff on the ship that's outside the armor. One potentially-useful approach here is teleporting bombs just behind the ships, so they blow up in the water right next to the inherently hard-to-armor propellers and rudders.

[RGTraynor]

It'd have pretty much the same impact as on any other era of naval history up to that date. Simple spells give you position, Communication keeps you in touch with fleet command, as well as with other ships in a squadron. Long-distance vision spells give a better idea sooner of the nationality of vessels ... never mind the myriad uses of Divination. Create and Purify Water are real game changers for extending the range of vessels, as well as sharply reducing storage needs. Test and Purify Food greatly enhances a crew's diet. Enchanting chase armament with +1 Puissance and Quick Aim?

And all that was stream of thought that took me little more time to think of than it took me to type it.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

And all that was stream of thought that took me little more time to think of than it took me to type it.

Myself if the campaign is truly 1890's tech...expensive as it would be...a torpedo boat (or more if it can be done in the setting)...enchanted with Reverse Missiles.

Right up there with 'I found a spaceship in the back 40 and its calling me Captain.' on the fantasy fun meter.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by ehrbar

Note that if you've got late TL5 power plants, you've got Draw Power and Teleport Other to teleport bombs. 4,345 hp worth of engine not used for something else will feed a mage 9 energy/second to first cast Air Vision (thus negating any hiding behind smoke, fog, etc.) and then launch 49-lb bombs (likely lightweight cases around more than 40 lbs of HE) to a range of up to 10 miles (dependent, of course, on the height of the mage's optics and thus visual horizon).

Teleport Shield enchantments are of no real use; you have to pay through the nose for height, so the Teleport Other side just aims a bit higher and sets the bomb to fall before detonating.

That, of course, will eliminate small torpedo boats. A torpedo launching platform will have to be big enough to be armored against battering by multiple 49-pound bombs to have a chance to fire its torpedoes.

Only if you also have good enough magic to negate the fire control problem - you'll need a fairly exact range, speed, and bearing for the target (relative to your ship), or you miss. Tell Position only gives the first.

If the GM doesn't like this they can also rule that it's very hard (or impossible) to teleport into open air, because you can't 'see' the exact spot, and you need to teleport onto something visible.

Also, you're casting at a -6 to skill, and that means unless you've got a very skilled caster there will be many bombs ending up who-knows-where. As it's a common theme for mis-teleports to go to similar-seeming places, I don't think I'd want to be on friendly ships when this form of attack was underway.

Given that IQ13, Magery 3 mages are most likely quite a rare commodity, I don't think this is the best use of their talents.

Wizard Eye, used to create an eye that's sent straight up will let a ship see much further, especially with other vision enhancing spells. There are many other knowledge spells that would be very useful as well. I think that this sort of magic will be a more useful of mages' talents than direct offensive uses.

[johndallman]

The 1866 Battle of Lissa is a good example of naval warfare at this TL, and shows how disastrous wilful player characters in charge of a fleet can be.

The naval part of the War of the Pacific was on a fairly small scale, but illustrated the unchanging parts of naval warfare.

The Battle of Santiago de Cuba is early TL6, without many of TL6's innovations, and is also worth a look.

Originally Posted by seasalt

Maybe throw in an aircraft carrier equivalent which serves as a hangar for dirigibles and/or a roost for flying beasts of war like dragons or griffins?

The beasts are actually easier to believe in. Dirigibles are really large and quite fragile. Getting them in and out of a hangar at sea, where there's always a wind and truly calm seas are very rare will be very hard, and accidents extremely destructive. A dirigible that can lift significant weaponry is larger than any sane ship.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Only if you also have good enough magic to negate the fire control problem - you'll need a fairly exact range, speed, and bearing for the target (relative to your ship), or you miss. Tell Position only gives the first.

Tell Position gives exact range, azimuth, and altitude relative to the caster, according to my copy of GURPS Magic. It doesn't give speed, but you can plot the range from two successive castings of Tell Position and determine speed from the change in position over time (and there's helpfully Tell Time to get accurate time stamps).

Accurate fire from naval artillery at long distance - or for casting Teleport Other spells at moving targets, I suppose - still requires all the machinery of a mechanical range keeping calculator, but historically, the hardest part was getting the range readings correctly and rapidly. Tell Position and Tell Time can be enchanted in jewelry with a Power enchantment, and then anyone (they're not mage only items) with the jewelry can be providing constant but correct ranges. It's not quite as good as late WWII radar, because it doesn't provide blind-fire capability, but it's supremely better than the early optical rangefinders.

Somewhat fortunately, Scryguard is a relatively cheap enchantment for large ships (500 energy * 1 + SM) and protects against Tell Position.

I'm mixed on the effects of 40 lb LE teleport bombs. They're trivially easy to make, and even at a 25% hit rate they are significantly more accurate than late TL5 and early TL6 naval artillery. They have to be teleported outside of the armor, but 40 lbs of LE can still wreck a ship's superstructure. On the other hand, Teleport Shield isn't that expensive for covering 30-50 yards of radius, which should be enough to cover the most vulnerable parts of the superstructure. So they end being closer to 6" or 8" non-armor piercing explosive shells, and well made ships survived a surprisingly large number of such hits.

It looks like it would be possible to use Water Vision to see under a ship, and if water doesn't count as a solid object, that would be where I would be sending my teleport bombs. Preferably larger ones - 250 lbs of LE would be a decent torpedo warhead until the start of the 20th century.

Though re-reading the failure effects of Teleport make me think teleport bombs are not going to work. A 25% chance of success is a 75% chance of failure, and having 2/3rds of the bombs going somewhere is not really acceptable.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by johndallman

The beasts are actually easier to believe in. Dirigibles are really large and quite fragile. Getting them in and out of a hangar at sea, where there's always a wind and truly calm seas are very rare will be very hard, and accidents extremely destructive. A dirigible that can lift significant weaponry is larger than any sane ship.

Never mind non-existent. The cargo capacity of the largest zeppelin ever built was 15 tons. They were also insanely dangerous; of the US Navy's five airships, the Los Angeles was the only one that survived to be decommissioned. As far as the "really large" bit goes, just for comparison, a Ford-class aircraft carrier is only half again as long as the Los Angeles was, and the longest ship ever built was a little over twice as long. I admit myself to a touch of "But zeppelins are cool!", but that ain't gonna fly, Orville. As John says, aircraft carriers toting dragons isn't a whole lot more fantastic.