06-09-2023, 05:51 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Rhode Island
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Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
Hello nice people of the forums!
Could you please help me figure out if I am on the right track with my first racial template? It is for my game of Warhammer Fantasy. A short note on sources: Warhammer Fantasy has a lot of sources, some of them contradictory. I mainly base my game on a combination of Warhammer Fantasy Battles 6th edition, WFRP 2e, a tiny bit of WFRP 4e to fill-in the gaps, some select things from WFRP 1e (notably, parts of Dwarfs: Stone and Steel), parts of Warhammer wiki that I like, and some random things I absorbed over the years of being exposed to Warhammer. I am no expert on the lore and I am not trying to chase some vague (and in my mind - unachievable) ideal of "true to canonical Warhammer Fantasy." In the end, any game in the world of Warhammer will end up different due to the nature of TTRPGs. Please do not see this as any attempt to start a Warhammer edition war =) Moreover, I am not trying to convert numbers from any of those sources except as a last resort! I draw inspiration from them and then try to recreate those sources in GURPS. Last note: I will be posting the template in chunks. I would much rather have a discreet discussion about each component than dump a wall of text on you and have 10 parallel conversations. Looking forward to your input! Part 1: Physical Build ST+2 [20]; Lifting ST 2 [6] I arrived at these numbers by thinking how much ST a human of a similar build would have and then “shrinking” it down to Dwarf size. A human with the build of a Warhammer Dwarf could probably put the bulkiest bodybuilders to shame, so I was thinking ST 15-16. “An attribute this high draws constant comment and probably guides your career choices” as Basic puts it. Assuming that an average man and an average Dwarf weight roughly the same but have a difference in height of about 10 inches, I arrived at a ratio in the ballpark of 0.85, which translates to the “shrunken” ST 16 man having ST 14 with some rounding. Now, I could just give the Dwarfs ST 14. However, I don’t see the source material portraying the typical Dwarf as striking with the strength of a chimp. Moreover, even that theoretical ST 16 man-sized source Dwarf probably doesn’t hit like a gorilla (well, almost like a gorilla, there would still be a difference of two points of ST). More likely his strength (pun intended) lies in lifting weights. With that logic, I split the difference with Lifting ST. Maybe there is a way to fine-tune this, but to my inexperienced eye this looks close enough to source material. HT+1 [10]; Extra Hit Points 2 [4]; Extra Fatigue Points 2 [6]; Alcohol Tolerance [1] I struggled with this portion a bit. At one point I was looking into DR with the Tough Skin limitation. However, I could not find enough support for this in the Warhammer lore. Sure, there is talk about Dwarfs having tough skin, but not on the level of a pelt or a hide. It could go either way, but I just could not reconcile DR with my vision of the source material. Instead, I went for 2 extra hp, which together with hp from extra ST should more than cover the ability of Dwarfen physique to absorb damage. 14 hp on an average Dwarf puts him on par with a black bear and just 1 hp shy of a large boar. However, most of the resilience of the bear and the boar comes from HT (13 and 14 respectively), so 11 HT on an average Dwarf makes it… fuzzy? I don’t know if HT 11 and 14 hp is where I want this to be. Maybe the answer would lie in HT 12 with 12 hp? Any help on this part? Extra Fatigue Points bring an average Dwarf to 13 fp. This may be a bit excessive, but I wanted to have some mechanical “teeth” to Dwarfen stubborn perseverance. Note that they have Magic Resistance, so I am not that concerned with any abuse from magic. I do use Extra Effort in combat, so this also will give them some extra oomph. However, I am not certain about this. +1 fp from HT could be sufficient… Any tips on where to get a yardstick to measure the right amount of fp? Not just for Dwarfs but for future templates? Alcohol Tolerance is mostly for “color” here. ST 12 and HT 11 already make Dwarfs good enough at drinking without AT: they can safely have 4 mugs of beer per hour, and even if they have 5, they are 50% likely to be OK. An average human, for comparison, is 74.1% likely to be tipsy after 4 mugs in an hour, 83.8% after 5. I don’t think there is much in the lore to justify any resistance to hangovers. Decreased Basic Move 1 [-5] To avoid getting my own entry in the Book of Grudges, I am not going to dive into the reason for Decreased Basic Move. Suffice it to say that average Move of 4 should work. I considered -2 to Move for a spell because of Dwarfs’ ST 14 for encumbrance purposes. Essentially, that -1 to Move gets offset by the difference in encumbrance penalties between heavily armored Dwarfs and similarly equipped humans. I haven’t run the math extensively (especially because I do not yet have detailed loadouts), so maybe I am missing something. But I have a feeling that a heavily armored footknight should be a tad faster than an Dwarfen ironbreaker. On the other hand, -2 to Move would penalize the unarmored Dwarfs far too much. In the end, the latter problem won out in my head. Was that a hint for me to reduce Dwarfs’ ST for lifting purposes? Temperature Tolerance 2 [2] (all allocated to the “hot” end of the zone) This one could raise some eyebrows because the source material seemingly either handwaves this or relies on magic runes of protection from heat. Dwarfs live underground. Deep underground. I could not find how deep in the source material. And the authors are probably right to avoid mentioning it – it doesn’t really matter for their purposes. However, for some reason that I cannot fully explain, I am fixated on futile attempts to bring some semblance of realism into my Warhammer games. So here goes. The deepest mine in our world, Mponeng Gold Mine, is 4 km deep. The temperature there reaches 151 °F. I think that should be too much even for a Dwarf (especially since Dwarfs typically live in places that are colder than South Africa). “Too much” is a bit fuzzy though. Basic starts to impose extra fatigue loss at 30 °F over comfort zone – that could be it. With that in mind, the comfort zone cannot go higher than 121 °F. Two levels of Temperature Tolerance with HT 11 would put Dwarfs closest to that threshold at 112 °F as the upper border of their comfort zone. That would let them live comfortably in fairly deep mines, deeper than a kilometer. Another way to look at it is this: Dwarfs are natural metalworkers. It would be appropriate for them to easily operate in hot forges. My admittedly surface research suggests that blacksmiths often deal with ambient temperatures above 100 °F. Temperature Tolerance 2 would cover this better than Temperature Tolerance 1. What bothers me is that suddenly Dwarfs become excellent desert dwellers. Should I put some sort of Accessibility limitation on this, like “except from the sun?” I don’t think it would move the needle on the price tag, but it would resolve this weirdness. Last edited by Chubby; 06-09-2023 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Forgot to list the price of HT |
06-09-2023, 06:38 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Virginia, US
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Re: Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
Are you familiar with GURPSHammer?
Their interpretation was: Attributes: ST+1 [10]; HT +1 [10]; DX -1 [-20]. Secondary Characteristics: Will +2 [10]; Fatigue +3 [9]; SM -1, Move -1 [-5]. Advantages: Artificer 1 [10]; Extended Lifespan 2 [4]; Mortal Foe (Greenskins) [5]; Hard to Kill 1 [2]; Indomitable [15]; Longevity [2]; Night Vision +5 [5]; Resistant to Disease (HT+8) [5]. Perks: Alcohol Tolerance [1]; Weapon Bond [1]. Disadvantages: Appearance: Unattractive [-4], Bad Temper [-10], Code of Honor (Dwarven) [-10]; Greed [-15], Intolerance (Elves and Greenskins) [-5], Odious Personal Habits (Gruff and Unfriendly)[-5], Stubbornness [-5]. Quirks: Dying Race [-1]; Never Forget a Grudge [-1], Never shave or cut beards [-1]. Social Background: Cultural Familiarity (Dwarven) [0], Language: Khazalid/ Klinkarhun (Native/Literate) [0]; Language: Old Worlder (Reikspiel; Native/Illiterate) [3]. Racial Skills: Survival (Mountain; at Per) [0]. |
06-11-2023, 07:44 AM | #3 |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
The build looks good and is well thought out. While there are several fan-made versions of GURPS WFRP, there's no reason you can't create your own template.
Realistically, Temperature Tolerance towards heat makes sense of a deep-delving subterranean species, but you're dealing with fantasy which assumes that deep caves are cold. Temperature Tolerance is a good call and it's cheap so it doesn't affect the template cost that much, but possibly allow it to cover both warmer temperatures (from forges or deep mines) as well as colder temperatures (from near-surface mines and mountains). As a final though, decide whether you're going for a "simulationist" conversion or an "evocative" one. If you go with the simulationist route, costs can get out of hand for templates designed for PCs. If you go with the "evocative" route, point costs are more reasonable, but players might be annoyed that the template doesn't include certain traits they consider to be vital. The solution to both problems is to keep the core traits that define the race as part of the basic template and add the "cool to have" or "might be present" traits as optional traits. |
06-11-2023, 09:34 AM | #4 | ||||||||||||
Join Date: Jun 2022
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Re: Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
Greetings and salutations!
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Your dwarves will be able to be heavier armored and still be relatively mobile. Your dwarves will be better Wrestlers than the average human, Lifting ST adds for Wrestling purposes. Your dwarves do +1 damage over regular humans. Your dwarves have slightly more HP than average humans (actually significantly more once we consider below). One thing I like to do which isn't RAW is to change how Lifting and Striking ST effect weapon usage. By RAW only Striking ST applies, however I like to change that. I apply Striking ST to damage and Lifting ST to Minimum ST, this would mean your average dwarf could use every single weapon in the Basic book with out a penalty from having a "low ST". Quote:
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13 FP represents a race that can march to the field and then march into combat and be "as fresh" as rested humans. "Fresh" human troops entering a fight can lose 7 FP before suffering ill effects. "Marched" dwarves (down 3 FP*) entering a fight can lose 7 FP before suffering ill effects. That's my yardstick. * Presumes Heavy Encumbrance (102lbs-204lbs of armor and kit). And these aren't even Iron Breakers, this is an average dwarf in medium to heavy armor having to fight after a march. Highly trained and more capable (stronger/tougher) dwarves would be even better. Quote:
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Another tick against a worse Move penalty: Being slow in combat is no fun. I know you're maybe not considering the "fun factor" too much, but I've played all three types pretty extensively (slow, median, and fast) and no matter how it shakes, most Players really hate being slow. Even if they're built for it, it just sucks. But, -1 isn't too harsh, it adds a bit "Aww man" without being deadly or extremely terrible. And with that extra FP, your dwarves can try to Extra Effort their way to hustle for a few rounds if they really have to (I strongly suggest they bone up on the Running skill or have a really good Will though). Quote:
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As for "but what about dwarves in the jungle", well, there are no dwarven communities down there, or if there are, okay, just means they're off fighting the Lizards, nothing the more Northern PCs need ever be concerned with or even know about. The last thing I consider in race building is this one: Can the Players afford to play the race? That is where I start fine tuning and shaving or boosting point costing features. |
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06-11-2023, 01:02 PM | #5 | ||
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
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You can give Dwarves Night Vision as a feature by setting their preferred light level as dim to dark by human standards (e.g., Darkness Penalty of -3 to -5) and that they have equivalent problems due to excessively bright light in what humans consider to be "normal" lighting conditions. Likewise, they have more severe penalties to deal with extremely bright light than humans. Allow extra levels of Night Vision as an optional advantage. Possibly add a "Bright Vision" perk which allows dwarves to ignore some or all of the penalties for operating in human-normal lighting conditions. |
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06-11-2023, 01:10 PM | #6 | ||||||||
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Rhode Island
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Re: Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
Wow! Thank you all for your input. I did not expect to get feedback so quickly.
Kage2020, thank you for posting the build from GURPSHammer. I have heard about it and looked at one of the older pdfs, but I could not get my hands on the final pfd. Do you know where I can still find it? The original links from the old thread no longer work. Unfortunately, the GURPSHammer interpretation is only useful in making me consider some traits I have not considered before, like Mortal Foe. Overall it (A) does not seem to align with how I understand the lore or GURPS, and, more importantly, (B) does not help me understand why certain traits are appropriate or inappropriate for my game. Why HT+1 and not +2 or +0? Why Night Vision 5 and not 4? To put it another way: I am grateful for you sharing this, as it helps me look at the template from another perspective, but my main goal is learning from the more experienced GURPSers (there must be a better word) how to build templates and think about traits. Pursuivant, you make a good point about colder Temperature Tolerance. I will either (A) add a note to my template saying that in my Warhammer the deep caves are hot and humid, to make sure that if somebody with a different approach re-uses the template, they can add more TT, or (B) tack on more TT on the cold side. I will probably decide once I settle on everything else and as a way to fine-tune the cost of the whole template. I am definitely going the simulationist route. My current draft of the template is expensive, but cultural templates for Dwarfs offset the cost. I would appreciate your feedback on that part once I post it. mburr0003, thank you so much for your detailed breakdown! Your kind of response is exactly why I came to this forum. Where I am not directly responding to something you said, I am just quietly agreeing or taking it into consideration. Quote:
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(I have never encountered mentions of bar brawls as a social outlet for Dwarfs in WH. Super reserved sounds more accurate to me, but I am no lore expert). Quote:
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On the one hand, this could justify either adding some hangover-related quirk to the template or modifying Alcohol Tolerance to exclude its bonus from hangover tests, to counteract Dwarfs resisting hangovers almost all the time. On the other hand, that would crowd the template a bit too much and may look roundabout... I think I will just chalk it up to Gotrek having "Horrible Hangovers" quirk. As an aside, are those novels worth a read? I have stayed away from Warhammer novels so far, satisfying that itch by reading Moorcock instead, but maybe I am missing out? Quote:
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06-11-2023, 04:17 PM | #7 | |||||
Join Date: Jun 2022
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Re: Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
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(And yes, I've seen that last example, I had to scratch my head too - they had good reasons, but I'm not sure I'd have bothered being so fiddly.) Quote:
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06-11-2023, 04:57 PM | #8 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Virginia, US
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Re: Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
The only place that I could find it the last time that I looked for it was on Scribd. I don't think that it's against any rules to suggest sending me a PM with your email so that I can share it back.
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FWIW, one thing that I find personally very useful when considering the degree of certain ads/disads is by using one of the various GURPS<->FUDGE interpretations out there (Kalyr's version happens to be my default, rightly or wrongly)--at least as the first draft. I like to use the adjective ladder to rough in where I would want a stat (or whatever) before fine tuning it. Indeed, I prefer to use this during online character generation whether a person is new to or an experienced hacker with GURPS because it pushes away from points optimisation and somewhat levels the playing field. Oh, and I believe the traditional term that you might be looking for is "grognard", or more accurately "GURPS grognard". On the other hand that's two words rather than one (ish) so it's all good. ;) |
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06-11-2023, 07:12 PM | #9 | ||||
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Rhode Island
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Re: Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
Pursuivant,
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mburr0003, thank you, I will put those G&F novels on the reading list. Quote:
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Part 2: Senses Night Vision 3 [3] I am not sure about this one. The sources I’ve read don’t really address this question well. The only mention of night vision is in WFRP books, as far as I could tell. Moreover, in WFRP that ability is very limited. Given that Dwarfs live underground, I think it makes sense for them to have Night Vision. I am open to feedback on that point. Now, why 3 levels? I want Dwarfs to see better in the dark than any human, but not better than nocturnal animals. Tactical Shooting says that 2 levels is the realistic maximum for humans, and Template Toolkit 2: Races sort of says that typical nocturnal animals have 3 levels. Hence – 3 levels. If the template ends up a bit too expensive, what I could also do is just give Dwarfs 1 level. In my game, I limit non-racial Night Vision to 2 levels per Tactical Shooting. Dwarfs then could go as high as 3 if they want, getting to the same point. For the sake of completeness, I also thought about handling Night Vision as a Potential Advantage, but it sounds silly for a leveled 1/lvl advantage – might as well just give it to them. Another possible approach, as Pursuivant pointed out, would be to shift the “default” light level for Dwarfs towards darkness. That is a fine approach in general, and I use it for my Night Goblins, but it presents two issues when applied to Dwarfs: (A) there are Imperial Dwarfs who live with humans and there are no mentions in the lore of them ever having trouble on a bright day (at least as far as I know – the lore is too vast to say for sure). Making them deal with penalties from bright light may result in aggressive players suggesting that my game is *gasp* not true to the lore. (B) Dwarfs are going to be a PC race in my game, unlike every other creature for whom I considered this approach. It may be just a little too fiddly for PCs, since players may find dealing with varying default light levels too complicated for too little depth. Should I read Powers – Enhanced Senses? Do you think it would help address this topic better? As for other senses, I don’t think anything in the lore suggests any changes from the human default. The ability to detect gold that Basic suggests sounds fun, but I don’t think it really fits Warhammer. Giving Dwarfs Professional Skill (Miner) through a cultural template (on which I will elaborate later) would get them roughly to the same point while avoiding the “fairy-tale” aftertaste. |
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06-11-2023, 07:57 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Virginia, US
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Re: Seeking Feedback - Racial Template: Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs (Dawi)
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Kalyr's interpretation of "GURPS FUDGE" can be found > here <. Again, please let me reiterate that this is just for eye-balling things and giving you a good start for something more solid. I'm not saying that it won't nail it on the first go, but just trying to temper expectations. I think that converting the adjectives into GURPS-y numbers might at least start that ball rolling. I hope so, anyway. And if the bark was up the wrong tree? My bad. I'm probably a little bit more "ballpark-y" than many GURPS users. Last edited by Kage2020; 06-11-2023 at 08:01 PM. |
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