SUGGESTION: a new format for the OPTIONS LIST

[Keysh]

I see several problems with this, unfortunately.


1. Section III.A violates the RAW in several ways. First, it effectively does away with the distinction between "engaged" and "disengaged". In the RAW, the available options for movement are clearly set by your "engaged status" (one of Disengaged, Engaged, or "HTH combat"). Thus, someone who begins the movement phase of their turn Engaged simply cannot move up to half their MA -- but your option (i) would now allow them to do this.

As part of this, your option (i) would allow engaged characters to effectively disengage by moving up to half their MA, simply by declaring that they are "defending". Thus, the Disengage option (q) becomes superfluous. (And, since Defending makes you harder to hit, no one who wants to disengage would choose (q) when they can choose (i).)


2. In addition, you've taken the standard" "Shift and Defend" (only available to Engaged characters) and mutated it into "Move up to half your MA and Defend" and made it available to both Engaged and Disengaged characters.


3. Your option (j) allows Engaged characters to Drop, which is not an option available to them in the RAW.


4. It preserves the troublesome ambiguity of what it means to "change your option". (OK, maybe we could argue that's actually preserving the RAW....) That is, if you start your movement phase Engaged and don't move, then when it comes your turn to act, can you choose any of the options in the table? After all, "did not move" satisfies the movement requirements for every single option. (Granted, some of them -- e.g., full move -- don't allow any actions apart from the movement.) Which means, among other things, that people who start the turn in HTH combat -- which specifies that they can't move -- could then choose as their action absolutely anything at all (cast spells, disbelieve, change weapons, dodge, ...).


My current feeling is that the ambiguity in the RAW could be resolved if you take the text (quoting from the Wizard rules) "The options available to a figure depend on whether it is engaged or disengaged at the moment its turn to move comes. During a turn, a player may change his mind about a figure’s option, as long as that figure has not yet acted, and that figure did not move too far to allow it to take the new option." -- and simply assume the first sentence applies to the second sentence. That is, you can change your mind about an option before you act, as long as you haven't moved too far -- but your choice is still limited to the same Disengaged, Engaged, or HTH subset you started with. (If you're Engaged and don't move, then you can choose an action from any of the the Engaged options -- but you can't choose an action from the Disengaged list, or from the HTH list.)

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Keysh

I see several problems with this, unfortunately.

1. Section III.A violates the RAW in several ways. First, it effectively does away with the distinction between "engaged" and "disengaged". In the RAW, the available options for movement are clearly set by your "engaged status" (one of Disengaged, Engaged, or "HTH combat"). Thus, someone who begins the movement phase of their turn Engaged simply cannot move up to half their MA -- but your option (i) would now allow them to do this.

No, no... I merely assumed it wouldn't be necessary to mention it, because the engagement rules separately state you cannot move at all, only shift, on your movement turn while engaged. I'm not telling anyone to violate the rules of engagement anywhere. But okay, to be more fully explicit:

A. MOVE UP TO ½ MA OR LESS, AND:

should have read

A. MOVE UP TO ½ MA OR LESS WHILE DISENGAGED, AND:

I believe for the remainder of section III each option contains an either/or qualifier wherever engagement status is applicable to the form of that option, but I'll triple check later.

Originally Posted by Keysh

As part of this, your option (i) would allow engaged characters to effectively disengage by moving up to half their MA, simply by declaring that they are "defending". Thus, the Disengage option (q) becomes superfluous. (And, since Defending makes you harder to hit, no one who wants to disengage would choose (q) when they can choose (i).)

2. In addition, you've taken the standard" "Shift and Defend" (only available to Engaged characters) and mutated it into "Move up to half your MA and Defend" and made it available to both Engaged and Disengaged characters.

As per above, no, an engaged figure cannot move 1/2 its MA. Follow the table. To get to option (q) DISENGAGE, you must pick B. after picking section III. The sequence of III. B. (q) bypasses the choice of moving 1/2 MA, which is under III. A. If you pick III. A. then you can't get to option (q).

But yes, a figure that moved (while disengaged) may indeed (i) DEFEND if it becomes engaged after the move. See Hexagram #3 for more on this, and a new Deck of Destiny card to cover the option for move and defend. SJ also clarified during fnordcon that switching option to Defend should actually only be allowed after moving no more than 1 hex, not 1/2 MA, which has yet to be reflected here. Either way, it's never actually been required to have started the turn engaged to use Defend later in the turn, as long as a figure didn't move too far (Wizard, 1978). This topic has been discussed to death in other threads on these forums.

In my table, (i) DEFEND and (q) DISENGAGE are presented as mutually exclusive options. Of course you can't do both in the same turn, and I don't believe anything in my table infers you could!

Originally Posted by Keysh

3. Your option (j) allows Engaged characters to Drop, which is not an option available to them in the RAW.

You may indeed elect to DROP as your action. IIRC, that came up in Advanced Melee. My table represents a composite of the options lists over the course of all editions. Consolidating these clarifications in one place is the very point of my table.

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by Keysh

-- but your choice is still limited to the same Disengaged, Engaged, or HTH subset you started with. (If you're Engaged and don't move, then you can choose an action from any of the the Engaged options -- but you can't choose an action from the Disengaged list, or from the HTH list.)

I believe this interpretation has been dispelled.

Please see my post here.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Tom H.

I believe this interpretation has been dispelled.

Please see my post here.

Indeed! Thanks for dropping in the link Tom. It's what I wanted to reference earlier but was dashing off to dinner while I was trying to answer Keysh's post.

[Steve Plambeck]

Below this I will be posting a revised version of my LIST OF OPTIONS originally appearing at the start of this thread in June 2019 -- hard to believe it's been a year already!

If you are viewing this for the first time, I should explain that this LIST OF OPTIONS in the subsequent post is not house rules. It merely presents, or attempts to present, the official options in an alternate format that I myself, and I hope others, find useful. It should not in any way cause any deviation in play from the rules as intended. Feel free to point out any mistakes, and I will correct them.

This revision hopefully clarifies some ambiguities people pointed out in the original, and I thank all the members of the forum who shared their feedback in the past year.

One change to be mentioned is that I have renumbered the options on this list to avoid any confusion with the official option labels like (a), (b), (c), etc. found in the RAW. As this list is not sorted in the same order (that was the whole point of this exercise!) it makes more sense to give my list its own, readily distinguishable numbering system.

[Steve Plambeck]

LIST OF OPTIONS

An OPTION is a set of actions. A figure may execute ONE option each turn, and may NOT mix actions from different options.
It is possible to change options – see below.


I. OPTIONS ONLY AVAILABLE TO DISENGAGED FIGURES

(D1) MOVE more than half its MA, up to its full MA. Take no other action this turn except for such things as jumping, attempting to scoop up a weapon, etc. (Note, a figure must STOP movement the moment it steps into any front hex of an armed opponent – at that point the figure becomes engaged.)

(D2) CHARGE ATTACK. Move up to half its MA and, when the chance to act comes, make a regular, thrown-weapon, or jabbing attack with your ready, non-missile weapon. OR move up to half its MA, ending movement on a hex occupied by another figure, and attempt to initiate HTH combat this turn; See p. 116.

(D3) DODGE. Move up to half its MA while dodging (see p. 117).

(D4) READY NEW WEAPON. Move up to 2 hexes and re-sling (NOT drop) its ready weapon and/or shield, and then (1) ready a new weapon and/or shield, OR (2) pick up and ready a dropped weapon and/or shield in the hex where movement ends or an adjacent hex, OR (3) exchange weapons with any adjacent figure. (If ENGAGED, you must use the CHANGE WEAPONS option instead – see below.)

(D5) CRAWL 2 HEXES. A disengaged figure in a prone, kneeling, or knocked down position may crawl up to two hexes on its turn to move. (If you are engaged, you cannot disengage by crawling unless your opponent cannot move at all.) The figure can take no other action if it plans to STAND UP (see below) at the end of the turn.


II. OPTIONS ONLY AVAILABLE TO FIGURES ALREADY IN HAND-TO-HAND COMBAT
(see p. 116)

(H1) HTH ATTACK. Attempt to hit an opponent in the same hex with bare hands or, if dagger is ready, with the dagger.

(H2) ATTEMPT TO DRAW DAGGER. Roll 3/DX to succeed.

(H3) ATTEMPT TO DISENGAGE. Disengaging while in HTH combat is not automatic; it requires a roll. See p. 117.


III. OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO ALL FIGURES NOT IN HTH COMBAT

Figures that are either ENGAGED or DISENGAGED may choose any one of the following options, with choice limited by the distance moved. Just because an option is available doesn’t necessarily mean it would make sense to pick it. You wouldn’t pick (B7) DISENGAGE if you weren’t engaged with anyone. You might pick (B1) ATTACK though even if your front hexes were empty, if you were guessing one of those hexes held an invisible foe. Let common sense prevail.

A. MOVE UP TO ½ MA (IF DISENGAGED) OR SHIFT 1 HEX (IF ENGAGED), OR STAND STILL AND:

(A1) DEFEND against any non-missile spells and attacks with your ready weapon (see p. 117).

(A2) DROP to a prone or kneeling position.

B. MOVE 1 HEX (IF DISENGAGED) OR SHIFT 1 HEX (IF ENGAGED), OR STAND STILL AND:

(B1) ATTACK. Make a regular, thrown-weapon, or jabbing attack with your ready, non-missile weapon ; this is identical to the CHARGE ATTACK option but without the charge.

(B2) MISSILE WEAPON ATTACK AND RELOAD. Move up to 1 hex and/or drop to prone/kneeling position and fire a missile weapon. A figure must be DISENGAGED to fire and reload a missile weapon, but see the next option.

(B3) ONE-LAST-SHOT MISSILE ATTACK. If the figure had a missile weapon ready BEFORE it was engaged, it may get off one last shot. (You can almost always release an arrow at a charging enemy.) You cannot reload a missile weapon while you remain engaged.

(B4) CHANGE WEAPONS. If ENGAGED, shift one hex (or stand still) and DROP ready weapon (if any), and ready a new weapon. (Exception: an ENGAGED figure cannot ready or reload a missile weapon.) If the figure was NOT engaged, it would normally be better to use the READY NEW WEAPON option (see above).

(B5) CAST SPELL. Taking no other action, attempt any spell.
.
(B6) DISBELIEVE. Taking no other action, attempt to disbelieve one figure.

(B7) DISENGAGE. An ENGAGED figure that only stands still or shifts one hex during movement may disengage one hex in any direction from one or more enemy figures when your turn to ACT comes. Make no attacks, cast no spells, etc; see p. 106 for an explanation of disengaging.

(B8) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK on the turn to act. An ENGAGED figure may attempt HTH combat by standing still or shifting during the movement phase; when its turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or (if it was ready) its dagger. If this attempt to initiate HTH fails, no attack or other action may occur this turn. See p. 116. [NOTE: if you had already attempted to initiate HTH at the end of a CHARGE ATTACK earlier this turn, you do not got a second try on your turn to act! If you were successful when you made that attempt, then you should be ignoring the options in this section and picking one from those AVAILABLE TO FIGURES ALREADY IN HTH COMBAT.]

C. OR DO NOT MOVE AT ALL AND:

(C1) PICK UP DROPPED WEAPON. “Bend over” (not moving), drop your ready weapon and/or shield (if any), and pick up and ready a dropped weapon in your hex or an adjacent hex.

(C2) STAND UP. Rise from a prone, kneeling, or knocked down position at the end of the combat phase. To stand up, the figure must have taken NO other action this turn other than the CRAWL 2 HEXES option (see above).


CHANGING OPTIONS

“It is legal to change options AFTER the movement part of the turn, to meet changing conditions. The only requirement is that the figure must not have already moved more than the NEW option allows. If you moved 0 or 1 hex, you may switch to any option you could have taken when the turn began ; if you moved ½ your MA or less, you may attack, defend, dodge, or drop ; if you moved over ½ your MA you may do nothing else that turn.” – SJ

[JimmyPlenty]

Nice work. Some suggestions. One to explain more, one to explain less.

H3 - (H3) ATTEMPT TO DISENGAGE. During its turn to act, a figure rolls 4 dice against adjDX. If successful, it immediately stands up and moves to any adjacent, empty hex. It can take no other action that turn.

- small enough to explain
- does not have to mention it cannot attack since it already says no other action can be taken

(B8) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK on the turn to act. When its turn to act comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or a ready dagger. If this attempt to initiate HTH fails, no attack or other action may occur this turn.

- eliminate first part about movement. Header B states this.
- "a ready dagger" instead of the parenthesis statement
- the rest doesn't have to be said since doing so violates only using one option a turn.

(C1) PICK UP DROPPED WEAPON. Drop your ready weapon and/or shield, and pick up and ready a dropped weapon in your hex or an adjacent hex.

- Section is under not moving, not needed to restate


Also, consider if any words in parentheses need to be in there. There are a few instances like C1.

Again, this is coming along nicely. I am a fan of getting away from the lettered options. The titles are what is important to remember.

[JimmyPlenty]

Actually, you got me thinking. As far as ease of remembering, consider shortening the titles.

Disengaged

MOVE
CHARGE
DODGE
READY
CRAWL

In HTH

HAND-TO-HAND
DRAW
DISENGAGE

All not in HTH

Move Half or Shift 1

DEFEND
DROP

Move 1 or Shift 1

ATTACK
SHOOT
CHANGE
CAST
DISBELIEVE
INITITATE

Move 0

PICKUP
STAND

[JimmyPlenty]

(B2) MISSILE WEAPON ATTACK. Move up to 1 hex and/or drop to prone/kneeling position and fire a missile weapon. A figure must be DISENGAGED to fire and reload a missile weapon. If the figure had a missile weapon ready BEFORE it was engaged, it may get off one last shot, but the missile weapon MUST be dropped after firing.

Could this work?

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

Nice work. Some suggestions. One to explain more, one to explain less.

H3 - (H3) ATTEMPT TO DISENGAGE. During its turn to act, a figure rolls 4 dice against adjDX. If successful, it immediately stands up and moves to any adjacent, empty hex. It can take no other action that turn.

- small enough to explain
- does not have to mention it cannot attack since it already says no other action can be taken

Thanks Jimmy!

H3 - I'm literally quoting the RAW verbatim here, and leaving it at that because even one more line of text wouldn't fit on page 1 (of my printed copy). I didn't want one or two lines that ended Section II to start the next page, which begins with the heading for Section III. printed on the reverse. Reasons for pagination become invisible once it's posted, because it's one continuous scroll on the forum. Best the reader follow up on the "See p. 117" in ITL anyway, because the HTH rules differ a bit from all the rest.

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

(B8) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK on the turn to act. When its turn to act comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or a ready dagger. If this attempt to initiate HTH fails, no attack or other action may occur this turn.

- eliminate first part about movement. Header B states this.
- "a ready dagger" instead of the parenthesis statement
- the rest doesn't have to be said since doing so violates only using one option a turn.

What you suggest for B8 is pretty much how it looked in the original version of my list from last year. I decided to get more expansive with this option in particular because several people who read the original questioned whether I had the whole HTH thing correct, and some debate ensued in its own thread. Many reading the RAW overlook or later forget that initiating (attempting to get into) HTH combat may occur as part of movement or action (just not both in the same turn), and that the attempt to start it and the attempt to make an attack within it are two entirely different things. In defending that position some thought I was saying you could attempt HTH twice in the same turn, which I wasn't, so I decided to use the space I had left over on the last page to avoid future misunderstandings about that.

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

(C1) PICK UP DROPPED WEAPON. Drop your ready weapon and/or shield, and pick up and ready a dropped weapon in your hex or an adjacent hex.

- Section is under not moving, not needed to restate

Also, consider if any words in parentheses need to be in there. There are a few instances like C1.

And sure enough this is something we're all busily discussing in a current thread going on right now :)

The parenthetic "(not moving)" is a bit problematic as someone else just observed. But that's how SJ wrote it, and while I'd rather he'd put it differently I'd be cherry-picking if I left it out. I've tried to present the options in a different format while minimizing as much as possible any changes to the author's actual text. It couldn't always be avoided, for example where I'm merging language from Wizard, Advanced Melee, and two editions of ITL in the same paragraph! In some of those cases I had to add some bridging text of my own just so the result was grammatically correct.

Meanwhile I've tried to steadfastly avoid changes that could be construed as self-serving. My personal arguments elsewhere on the forum should stand or fall on their own merits, not on how I chose to paraphrase the rules within this project.