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Old 02-17-2018, 06:44 AM   #61
Brandy
 
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

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Originally Posted by Kesendeja View Post
Did some calculations last night, and for the advantages Combat Veteran should be 10 points, and Fast Reflexes as stated should be at least a 20 points.
I like the rule as is because it doesn't deviate too far from the pricing of Combat Reflexes as written. House ruling a really useful ability to cost twice as much is a little off-putting to me, at least for use in an actual game. As a thought experiment on the forums, sure.

As far as what they "should" cost, I don't think you're wrong about fast reflexes. 20 points seems pretty spot on to me based upon what it includes but even at 15 it isn't a "must buy" ability, especially if Enhanced Defenses are available (as they are in my game via Special Exercises).

For combat veteran, though? I suspect there are 100 different ways to approach pricing that ability, and its value is going to vary wildly from campaign to campaign.
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:18 AM   #62
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

Or we can just keep Combat Reflexes at 15 points and create a 5 point version that gives the non-Defense bonuses (call it Combat Training). I really do not see much reason to mess with an advantage that has remained unchanged for 30 years.
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:44 AM   #63
hal
 
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

In trying to emulate reality as far as what the difference between a combat veteran vs a newbie acts and responds as - why not list the differences and see if one can simply assign certain aspects to skills?

For example, would bring able to recognize a potential ambush site induce a heightened state of alertness that helps avoid surprise? Would a "stoned" soldier be as wary as himself in an unstoned state?

What if one could roll against soldier skill instead of IQ to avoid mental stun? What if soldier skill degrades over time due to a lack of use such that time spent back in civilization results in less and less battlefield reflexive responses? What if in part, mental stun was better simulated by a roll vs soldier skill at a penalty/bonus equal to the result of a perception roll?

Then there are fright check rolls. Freezing a few precious seconds due to fear is probably different than freezing due to not knowing what to do and taking the time to both process the situation as it is (perception roll) and the correct thing to do (default IQ roll if not using an actual skill like tactics, soldier, or other appropriate skill)?

Then there is the issue for me as a GM - why is combat reflexes an all or nothing advantage? Why can't a newbie soldier gain partial aspects of combat reflexes as time goes on? The original Classic rules for mass combat indicated that soldiers who qualified as veterans with combat reflexes had to survive 7+ major campaigns/battles. Dividing 15 points by 7 results in a value of 2 points per battle with one battle resulting in 3 points towards combat reflexes. So why can't acquiring combat reflex benefits accumulate over time as well? In fact? Why can't aspects of combat reflexes be built up over time as individual benefits come on line until the full 15 points for combat reflexes have been acquired? There must be some difference between a newbie and someone who has survived 3 major battles vs one who has survived 5 vs one who has survived 7+?

In reality, isn't the real difference between a newbie to battle and a hardened battle vet - the accumulation of experience? The ability to avoid becoming paralyzed by fear, knowing the right thing to do more quickly than spending time to puzzle it out?

Can ANY of the benefits for combat reflexes be strictly skill based and divorced from the advantage itself and consequently removed from the advantage?

Just thinking outside the box.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:10 AM   #64
Jareth Valar
 
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

OK, I'm confused by a few posts implying "..it's not that bad, you could always take Enhanced Defense.." (paraphrasing)

To get the same +1 defense bonus you would need 35 pts. Enhanced Block (both Cloak and Shield) 10 pts, Enhanced Dodge 15 pts, and Enhanced Parry (all parries) 10 pts. (unless I am totally missing something here)

So where is there even a comparison with 15 vs. 35? Seems a no brainer to me, especially considering you get extra as well. Just curious on the thought processes here.

As for Enhanced Defense being overpriced, I agree that it could seem that way, but as someone else pointed out earlier
Enhanced Dodge is just +1 Basic Speed without the +1 Basic Move (5) so IMHO spot on.
Enhanced Block giving a +1 to only 1 skill for 5, yeah I can see that as slightly overpriced, but really not awful.
Enhanced Parry giving +1 to ALL parries for 10 seems like a bargain, especially for a melee combatant.

Kromm mentioned in an earlier post that it was 15 points with no +1 defense when it appeared, which is what I will probably do when I put on the GM hat.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:50 AM   #65
johndallman
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
Enhanced Block giving a +1 to only 1 skill for 5, yeah I can see that as slightly overpriced, but really not awful.
It's +2, since Block rolls are 3+(Skill/2), and it applies to two skills (Cloak and Shield, and Shield has three specialisations, but few characters use many of these). So it's actually cheap.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:06 AM   #66
Jareth Valar
 
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
It's +2, since Block rolls are 3+(Skill/2), and it applies to two skills (Cloak and Shield, and Shield has three specialisations, but few characters use many of these). So it's actually cheap.
5 points get you +1 to Block with either Cloak or Shield, so +1 to only 1 skill for 5.

True, a +1 to Block is the equivalent of +2 skill because of the defense formula, but has nothing really to do with the advantage. Given the cost of raising a skill by 2 points can be upwards of 8 points and the fact that you only get half the benefit (+1 Block) at most it should be 4 points. However, IMHO, 5 isn't awful.
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:11 AM   #67
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
It's +2, since Block rolls are 3+(Skill/2), and it applies to two skills (Cloak and Shield, and Shield has three specialisations, but few characters use many of these).
Seems that it only applies to one skill.
Quote:
Enhanced Block: You have +1 to your Block score with either Cloak or Shield skill. You must specialize in one particular Block defense.
That makes it equivalent to Enhanced Parry: 5 points for +1 to parry with one combat skill.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:38 AM   #68
Brandy
 
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
OK, I'm confused by a few posts implying "..it's not that bad, you could always take Enhanced Defense.." (paraphrasing)
What I was thinking when I said that was that most people building characters for my games are trying to max out their best defense roll, not necessarily improve all of them. For a character that relies on a shield, the +1 to all defenses isn't much better than +1 block, because the vast majority of the time when that character is rolling defense rolls they're rolling against their block score.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
To get the same +1 defense bonus you would need 35 pts. Enhanced Block (both Cloak and Shield) 10 pts, Enhanced Dodge 15 pts, and Enhanced Parry (all parries) 10 pts. (unless I am totally missing something here)
Also, that pricing scheme isn't the way I think of it. In my way of looking at it, most of the time characters are rolling vs. a single defense so +1 to all defenses isn't worth the points for +1 to all defenses simultaneously. When I said upthread that +1 to defenses and fast draw rolls was worth about 20 points I was thinking:

[15] +1 dodge
[02] +1 parry with all (using AA pricing)
[01] +1 block (using AA pricing)
[02] +1 fast draw (using 1-skill talent pricing)

I recognize that the ability as written isn't really an alternate ability, but that is the benefit that most characters get most of the time and so in my opinion is a much fairer way to price it.

I'm not saying my way is the right way -- just trying to explain my thinking.
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Old 02-20-2018, 01:36 AM   #69
Jareth Valar
 
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

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Originally Posted by Brandy View Post
What I was thinking when I said that was that most people building characters for my games are trying to max out their best defense roll, not necessarily improve all of them. For a character that relies on a shield, the +1 to all defenses isn't much better than +1 block, because the vast majority of the time when that character is rolling defense rolls they're rolling against their block score.



Also, that pricing scheme isn't the way I think of it. In my way of looking at it, most of the time characters are rolling vs. a single defense so +1 to all defenses isn't worth the points for +1 to all defenses simultaneously. When I said upthread that +1 to defenses and fast draw rolls was worth about 20 points I was thinking:

[15] +1 dodge
[02] +1 parry with all (using AA pricing)
[01] +1 block (using AA pricing)
[02] +1 fast draw (using 1-skill talent pricing)

I recognize that the ability as written isn't really an alternate ability, but that is the benefit that most characters get most of the time and so in my opinion is a much fairer way to price it.

I'm not saying my way is the right way -- just trying to explain my thinking.
So, since you can only make one defense roll at a time, you priced them as Alternate Advantages. Never tought of it that way. Should have, having played Mutants and Masterminds, Champions and Fuzion. Have to reconsider some things now.
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Old 02-20-2018, 04:53 AM   #70
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Default Re: Combat Reflexes without defense bonus

I don't think Alternative Advantage really fits here, yeah OK you can only use one active defence at a time, but equally you tend to only use one weapon skill at a time (in a combat round) would you price them via AA? E.g. if someone with DX10 had spent 20pts to get Broadsword to DX+5, would you charge one handed mace brought to DX+4 at 16/5 3pts, or the same for Bow brought to DX+4?


Moreover there are situations where you can actually use two different active defenses in the same round and having both available to you at the beginning advantages you,

Similarly it's quite often that you can use the best active defence available to you at a time, and that choice can be as much about the situation than just the abstract skill level of the defence e,g


If I have sword and shield unlike Alternative Attacks I can chose weather I parry or block, this potentially becomes more than just a matter of which is my best skill if I'm trying to defend against an attack(s) that limit or reduces my active defence choice.

e.g. someone fires an arrow at me I'll block (because generally I can;t parry an arrow). If I've already blocked one attack I'll parry a second, if i've already parried one attack I'll block another (if my block isn't 3 or less than my parry)

Perhaps more importantly for directly going against AA use here is the fact that the loss of one AD doesn't necessarily mean the loss of all AD's. Which is a limitation of AA and part of the trade off for the points discount

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-20-2018 at 08:12 AM.
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