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Old 05-23-2020, 02:17 PM   #1
b-dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Default Evil Opposition to undead?

I would like to have an evil opposition to the forces of the undead. The idea is that there are evil forces like undead that try to basically kill the life in the world. But there is also evil forces of life that fight against the undead too. While the forces of undead make forests into dead stands of trees and blighted land, the forces of evil life power trees to grow poison berries, spikes, thorns, birds and even tendrils and branches that will bore into victims to feed. The evil life power makes animals that are much more fierce and monstrous. Does anyone have a good name for something like this? And what kinds of evil powers could harm undead? Thanks.
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Old 05-23-2020, 05:17 PM   #2
b-dog
 
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Default Re: Evil Opposition to undead?

I guess what I want is there to be factions of evil that oppose each other and cancel each other out. The undead and the evil life are part of of the chaos of evil that constantly fight.

Some ideas for powers might be a slime or mold that rots and eats undead bones and corpses Skeletons, lich, vampires and mummies would be affected.

Spores could implant into spectral undead and devour them.

Or maybe they could have a power that reverses the undead curse and then makes them mortal so they die naturally.

The types of evil nature could be molds, slimes, werewolves and other hybrid monsters.
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Old 05-23-2020, 07:48 PM   #3
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Evil Opposition to undead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
The evil life power makes animals that are much more fierce and monstrous. Does anyone have a good name for something like this? And what kinds of evil powers could harm undead? Thanks.
Savage, which literally just means wild, seems to have the right sort of connotations in English.

What sort of evil powers? I don't see any reason for them necessarily to be all that different from the good ones - turn/ward out, damage, take control of, or outright destroy probably work as antithetical powers to any class of entities. The special effects may be different - evil probably isn't going to blast them with light from the heavens, but being consumed by hellfire is basically the same thing.
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Old 05-23-2020, 09:05 PM   #4
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Evil Opposition to undead?

That pretty much sounds like "I want evil druids". As for what would harm the undead, there are a whole bunch of things that classify dead bodies as food. My malignant nature creatures liked arrows made of living wood enchanted to root themselves in flesh (they weren't all that picky about whether the flesh was dead or not) and grow with unnatural speed. Within the DF ethos, I'd probably look at creatures tagged as fungi, mold, or slime.
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:46 AM   #5
Kromm
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Default Re: Evil Opposition to undead?

Canonically, Nature isn't evil or good. It just is. It's at one extreme of an orthogonal axis that runs from "natural" to "unnatural" – i.e., ordinary wilderness, which druids like, is at the "natural" end, while almost anything that defies the natural order or that hails from another dimension is at the "unnatural" end. Somewhere in the middle are civilizations, which are populated by natural beings but which displace the wilderness.

Note that nothing I've said so far says anything about whether druids are good or evil!

In fact, you have lots of possibilities. Some examples:
Good, natural: Helpful forest guides, cute talking bunnies, forests that feed and heal visitors.
Good, semi-natural: Empires of sapient races that mostly respect life, and that favor the stuff on the "good" part of this list or reject the stuff on the "evil" part.
Good, unnatural: Angels and similar servitors of righteous gods.

Neutral, natural: Classic D&D druids, nonmagical wilderness, rocks.
Neutral, semi-natural: Civilizations that believe in balance or neutrality, and that don't side with "good" or "evil" empires.
Neutral, unnatural: The vast majority of extradimensional entities (e.g., elementals) and constructs (e.g., golems).

Evil, natural: Human-sacrificing primitives, "dark druids," forests that seek to slay intruders.
Evil, semi-natural: Empires of sapient races that value power above life, and that favor the stuff on the "evil" part of this list or reject the stuff on the "good" part.
Evil, unnatural: Demons, undead.
So go ahead and have "evil, natural" oppose "evil, unnatural," if you want.

Within each "semi-natural" and "unnatural" category, you're going to have politics and factions. These concepts are inherently not natural, though – they stem from civilizations, mortal and divine (one mirroring the other, though which is the mirror can vary). So you can have two empires or faiths that don't get along but that are both "good," "neutral," or "evil," or two leaders who fight for dominance but who are both "good," "neutral," or "evil" . . . and on the unnatural plane, you can have angels battling other angels, elementals battling other elementals, and demons battling other demons, as well as golems or undead in the armies of rival "neutral" or "evil" forces.

Of course, rival nations or leaders might attempt to paint the other side as the opposite of whatever they are. For instance, two saintly leaders who worship two different deities of good and summon two unrelated, unfriendly kinds of angels might call each other "evil." That doesn't mean they're evil in the absolute, demons-from-Hell kind of way.

And finally – and still canonically – you have Elder Things. These exist outside conventional reality, and thus all of the above. They aren't "good" or "evil," and don't play politics. They are clearly unnatural in the extreme . . . to such an extreme that one could say that all of the above would oppose them. "Good" people will paint them as "evil" because they're inimical to existence, but it isn't as though "evil" folk have a better relationship with them. They're just more likely to make the mistake of seeking power from them. Or they, too, might call Elder Things "evil"; indeed, Elder Things could be universally portrayed as "evil" because nobody sane takes their side.

So . . . you have lots of choices. Different factions of evil that are by rights unnatural might still oppose other factions and their undead. Evil beings who are closer to being natural might oppose the undead just because they're unnatural. And Elder Things deemed "evil" might destroy undead because they're in the way.
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:08 PM   #6
b-dog
 
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Default Re: Evil Opposition to undead?

I was thinking that undead is a supernatural category of mundane death and for life there could be a supernatural category of life for mundane life. This gives me an idea a supernatural life power of life force. Maybe life-force jet could be toxic and damaging to undead but healing to those who are living. It is the counter to the supernatural powers that undead use to harm the living. The supernatural power that makes undead could be in opposition to the supernatural power of life.
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Old 05-26-2020, 07:58 PM   #7
b-dog
 
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Default Re: Evil Opposition to undead?

Could Divine opposition to the undead be because it is contrary to the Divine plan of life and death while there could be a supernatural life energy that is opposed to undead because undead is a form of supernatural death? So basically druids and clerics oppose undead but for different reasons. Clerics stamp out undead because undeath defies the Divine plan while druids hate undead because it opposes their supernatural life energy.
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:44 PM   #8
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Evil Opposition to undead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
Could Divine opposition to the undead be because it is contrary to the Divine plan of life and death while there could be a supernatural life energy that is opposed to undead because undead is a form of supernatural death?
There's no real need for any philosophically coherent reason for opposition, nor do two different groups need different reasons, but the obvious reason for nature to take offense at undead is because it's unnatural.
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:49 AM   #9
Michele
 
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Location: Udine, Italy
Default Re: Evil Opposition to undead?

Imagine an old civilization on a continent poor on metals. Their technology is - breeding. Their personal weapons are organic, their heavy weapons are war animals. To them, life is both a means and an end. Life is what's right and natural. Unfortunately, they also believe in "natural selection", i.e. in the Nazi sense of the concept. Undead are the stuff of frightening tales for them, but if they existed, they'd be an abomination to be mercilessly destroyed.

On the other hand, on another continent, you have a classic fantasy civilization, with magic that can create undead. They are an exception to the rule that everything living eventually dies, yes, but magic is part of what's natural. Nothing to write home about. And this civilization is mercantile and multipolar: competition is OK, limited wars are somewhat acceptable, but conquest and utter subjugation are things of the evil empires, which were fortunately defeated long ago.

Nothing good can come if these two civilizations suddenly come into contact, and the latter would certainly see the former as both evil and rabidly opposed to the undead.
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Old Today, 07:24 AM   #10
clu2415
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Default Re: Evil Opposition to undead?

If there’s a strong cultural emphasis on the sanctity of life and the defiling of that order that undead represent, even villains raised in that society will still hold those values. They can dominate the world and enslave the sentient races without being gauche.

Maybe the power of undead and necromancy is a threat to any other would-be world conquerors. Any upstarts that use necromancy get swatted down by other villains before they get out of hand.
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