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Old 05-29-2011, 03:29 AM   #11
Sam Baughn
 
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Default Re: Hyena

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I'd handwave +10 Striking ST (Biting Only) as a simplification - that bumps the Spotted hyenas up to having stronger jaws than the bears, which also jives with the empirical tests on crushing thick bones which is probably most similar to a measure of biting damage (the hyenas outperformed the bears in practical applications of crushing 7cm thick sections of bone as well as on the bite-force meter).
I'd be somewhat hesitant to say that a hyena does more biting damage than a bear, just because it can crunch through bone better and exert more force over the contact area of it's teeth. Biting damage seems just as likely to be influenced by the size and shape of your teeth and your ability to drag pieces of your opponent around with your mouth (which is probably a matter of neck strength and overall body mass as much as sheer bite pressure).

A quick search of the web shows some estimates of human bite force in the thousands of psi. If there was a simple conversion of pressure to damage, human bites might do more than bears.

Not saying that they shouldn't have Striking ST (Bite only), just that assuming a hyena bite does more damage than a bear bite because they can generate more psi could lead to some false conclusions.
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:47 AM   #12
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Default Re: Hyena

Lifting ST (biting only)? Once it's got you in its jaws you're doomed (MA115)
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Old 05-29-2011, 10:29 AM   #13
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Default Re: Hyena

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Originally Posted by Perfect Organism View Post
I'd be somewhat hesitant to say that a hyena does more biting damage than a bear, just because it can crunch through bone better and exert more force over the contact area of it's teeth. Biting damage seems just as likely to be influenced by the size and shape of your teeth and your ability to drag pieces of your opponent around with your mouth (which is probably a matter of neck strength and overall body mass as much as sheer bite pressure).

A quick search of the web shows some estimates of human bite force in the thousands of psi. If there was a simple conversion of pressure to damage, human bites might do more than bears.

Not saying that they shouldn't have Striking ST (Bite only), just that assuming a hyena bite does more damage than a bear bite because they can generate more psi could lead to some false conclusions.
... You've missed the entire part where I say that there's no direct corrolation that I can tell between PSI and GURPS ST rating, and that it depends on jaw geometry, and that the empirical tests of actually destroying things with their jaws are probably more useful for guaging ST, I guess?

Because I did, right in that same post where I'm guessing at the striking ST.

The bite force is suggestive, but I dispute that their actual mechanical ability to shatter and grind up bones better (not on paper, but by giving them bones) isn't relevant. That's actual application of force in a destructive manner that's clearly applicable to bite damage in GURPS. I did NOT assume they should have more ST because of the PSI, I assumed they should have more ST because they do more destructive things.

As far as neck and shoulder strength - Spotted hyenas are heavily optimized for this. Their back ends look pretty standard for a hyena, but their front ends look like they've been spending all day working out with weights in prison or something. It's why they look so dang weird.

Their teeth are very strongly and deeply rooted, which is needed to support twisting and shaking, not straight crushing. Their bonestructure in their heads is very solid both to endure the forces and as a solid anchor point for the muscles. The neck and shoulder muscles are massively over developed in order to twist and wrench the head with as much power as possible considering the scale of the animal.

Total body weight is not part of bite damage unless you're small enough relative to your target that you can actually fling yourself around without the target being flung along with you. Small dogs vs human sized targets, yes (having had a Jack Russel Terrier hanging from my sleeve on more than one occasion), grizzley bears no. It's a tactic that requires smaller animals, because it needs a very high strength to weight ratio to not damage the jaw, teeth, neck muscles, and spine. Bears just can't do that - they've got small heads relative to their very large bodies. I don't think hyenas can significantly use that tactic either, even with their disproportionately developed heads and necks.
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:34 PM   #14
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Default Re: Hyena

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I'd handwave +10 Striking ST (Biting Only) as a simplification - that bumps the Spotted hyenas up to having stronger jaws than the bears, which also jives with the empirical tests on crushing thick bones which is probably most similar to a measure of biting damage (the hyenas outperformed the bears in practical applications of crushing 7cm thick sections of bone as well as on the bite-force meter).
The data I've seen pegs the relative bite force compared to body weight of spotted hyenas about equivalent to the large cats and wolves - but only when measured at the fangs. Since predatory bites are done with the fangs, this is probably the relevant point of comparison. When attacking, carnivora don't usually dig in with the carnassals, probably because this would be awkward and difficult to pull off on a bucking, struggling victim.

If the hyena has the leisure to sit down and bring its carnassals to bear, then it might get an armor divisor of (2) or something, but this might be at a -5 to hit in combat.

As an aside, all placental big game hunters have roughly equivalent relative bite strength at the fangs. All placental small game hunters likewise have more or less equivalent bite force at the fangs, but this is weaker for small game hunters than for big game hunters. Bears fare unusually poorly as far as relative bite force - perhaps this is because they do not spend a lot of time eating meat, and perhaps it is because they rely more on their incredible arm strength. Marsupial predators tend to have greater relative bite strength than their equivalent placental analogues. This may be because jaw closing muscles and brains occupy about the same part of the head and they compete for space - marsupials go for more brawn, less brain.

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Old 06-01-2011, 04:30 AM   #15
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Default Re: Hyena

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Bears fare unusually poorly as far as relative bite force - perhaps this is because they do not spend a lot of time eating meat, and perhaps it is because they rely more on their incredible arm strength.
Might bears qualify for Weak Bite, do you think?

Although I have issues with Weak Bite: with -2 damage per die, it's possible for more ST to result in less damage (although the bonus damage from Brawling helps to balance it out again). Something like using 2/3 of your usual ST to calculate bite damage would have probably worked better.

Or I guess you could have a 'somewhat weak bite' Quirk which gave them -1 damage per die.
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:38 AM   #16
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Default Re: Hyena

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Spotted hyenas (the "laughing" ones) are larger than browns, more aggressive, and more predatory. They shouldn't be sharing a statblock with browns. They can range between the very top end of SM -1 and SM 0 (most SM 0), ST: 10-12 (average 10 for males, 10 or 11 for females).

If any animal is qualified for a few (!) levels of extra Striking ST (Biting only), it's the spotted hyena, who clock in at a bite force of 11,400 lbf/in^2, compared to the Grizzly Bear at 1,200 lbf/in^2 - they're bone crushing machines.
you know that female hyenas are bigger than males, right?
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:47 AM   #17
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Default Re: Hyena

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Spotted hyenas (the "laughing" ones) are larger than browns, more aggressive, and more predatory. They shouldn't be sharing a statblock with browns. They can range between the very top end of SM -1 and SM 0 (most SM 0), ST: 10-12 (average 10 for males, 10 or 11 for females).

If any animal is qualified for a few (!) levels of extra Striking ST (Biting only), it's the spotted hyena, who clock in at a bite force of 11,400 lbf/in^2, compared to the Grizzly Bear at 1,200 lbf/in^2 - they're bone crushing machines.
you know that female hyenas are bigger than males, right?
I could be wrong, but I believe that's why she listed the female with higher ST... But only in Spotted Hyenas (which was what she was statting) - Stripped Hyenas, which are also known to become Man Eaters, the males are larger. I'd put Spotted Hyenas definitely into SM0, they are larger than grey wolves, which are SM0. Brown Hyenas could be hand-waved as coyotes with stronger bite, a kid with a stick and a loud shout will scare it off.
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Old 06-01-2011, 08:01 AM   #18
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Default Re: Hyena

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Originally Posted by Perfect Organism View Post
Might bears qualify for Weak Bite, do you think?
In my writeups (shortly after GURPS 4 came out, so missing many of the nifty goodness like Born Biter and so on), bears do not have any particular disadvantage for biting compared to people, and do have Sharp Teeth. Their ST is fairly typical for their size, but they get plenty of extra Arm ST (and Blunt Claws).

http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/m...dae/Bears.html

Big game hunters, however, have extra Jaw ST (the equivalent of Arm ST, but for jaws) to allow them to bite harder and hold on with their teeth better.

http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/m...dae/canid.html

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Originally Posted by Perfect Organism View Post
Although I have issues with Weak Bite: with -2 damage per die, it's possible for more ST to result in less damage (although the bonus damage from Brawling helps to balance it out again). Something like using 2/3 of your usual ST to calculate bite damage would have probably worked better.

Or I guess you could have a 'somewhat weak bite' Quirk which gave them -1 damage per die.
A Quirk seems they way to go, Weak Bite does seem like it penalizes the damage too much and bear bites are dangerous, after all.

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Old 06-01-2011, 09:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: Hyena

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you know that female hyenas are bigger than males, right?
Yeeeees? To the tune of at least 20 pounds, more for hyenas from larger sub-species/ethnic groups/whatever the term is. That's why they get more ST, and that's why the high end of the weight is for females.

Female spotted hyenas also anatomically highly masculinized by all the testosterone that makes them big and aggressive*. It's pretty convincing, to the point where early European naturalists hypothesized that they were an all-male species, or that they changed sexes, or that they were some sort of hybrid. Probably why hyenas got nominated as one of the parents of the leurocotta - lions for ferocity, hyenas for weirdness.

* Not entirely due to the testosterone though - they've tested by suppressing testosterone production in pregnant females, and the female cubs were much less "endowed" but still unusual. So there's a genetic factor at work as well as an environmental one.
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